4-2-5 & 3-3-5 defenses

Discussion in 'After Midnight' started by Dru50, Jun 10, 2011.

  1. Dru50

    Dru50 Still Chicago's #1 son

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    Just out of curiousity, are any of you guys planning on running one of these defenses? I allowed them in my league last year (T3) and plan on allowing them in here as well, however I want to bring up two issues I've encountered in the past with these defenses that could cause issues:

    • You should not be blitzing the SS's so much that they end up with ludicrously inflated stats like TFL or sacks. Yes, in these looks the SS's are down on the line and act more like LB's, but for the past 2-3 game cycles it is far too easy to get sacks and TFL's with SS blitzes, since the OL seems to ignore them half the time. If I see people with SS's leading the team in sacks, Houston, we will have a problem.
    • Your FS should be played as a center-fielder, in accordance with the design of the defense. If I start hearing about guys controlling the FS and crashing them down to the line as a 9th guy in the box, that will be an issue. It's always been too easy to play that way and still get back in the passing game to cover deep.
    Just throwing this out there for discussion since we have like 3-4 weeks until the demo is out.
     
  2. Bucs

    Bucs GT: ThruTheSmoke47

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  3. Dru50

    Dru50 Still Chicago's #1 son

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    Huh?
     
  4. Bucs

    Bucs GT: ThruTheSmoke47

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    just seems like everyday we are adding new restrictions and rules.
     
  5. Dru50

    Dru50 Still Chicago's #1 son

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    These aren't really 'rules' per se, but are rather guidelines on what the issues with these defenses have historically been. I'd love it if there weren't any, but the issues with those two defenses go back multiple game cycles.

    To be honest (and this is going to sound worse than I intend it to) - if you want a league without any rules, this probably won't be a great fit for you. The game (as good as I usually think it is) has areas that are broken year in and year out. In order to maintain some semblance of sim play, you need to implement some restrictions on gameplay and other areas of the game. Without clearly defined rules of what is and is not acceptable, inevitably I'll start getting complaints about 'so and so did this in our game' after people lose. Sorry man, I have no patience for that. If you are looking for a league that will allow you to play and recruit however you want, I can talk with Shaun and try and get you traded to one of the other leagues that may be more what you are looking for.

    Would you prefer I do like about 75% of the leagues did for 2011 and totally ban these two defenses?
     
  6. cfoley33102

    cfoley33102 Walk On

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    I don't think it would matter if you ban them or not Dru if a guy is going to play like that then we really dont need him around because he is going to figure out a way to do something random in some other defense or offense.
     
  7. Dru50

    Dru50 Still Chicago's #1 son

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    That's my concern as well. I don't think any of you guys fit that bill, but I'd rather find out now than in August.

    To be clear to everyone, the rules I have in here mirror very closely the general site rules for NCAA, and the ones that differ are utilized by most of the premier dynasties from 2011 - they just aren't written down.

    But I want everyone to understand a couple of points - this league will have rules, and while I will elicit commentary before implementing rules once the game is out, ultimately I will put rules into place that are for the good of the league. Even if those rules aren't popular with some or all of you.

    I want everyone to enjoy their NCAA 2012 experience, and if you feel like playing in a league structured like this will be fun for you (and I'm talking to all of you - well, except for Cole - I couldn't care less what he thinks :D), then do us both a favor and tell me now. It will be better for the individual and the rest of the group in the long run.

    OK {stepping off the soapbox}
     
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  8. Jayrah

    Jayrah AllCougdUp.com Editor - A.M. avatar Guru

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    I'm good.

    Anything that makes it less realistic should be avoided. And really, to be honest, if you play football on the game like football is played, you won't even have to think about 9 outta 10 of the "rules". I mean really @bucsfan047 does this rule even affect your game? He didn't say you can't blitz from that position, just to be courteous and fair about it by playing the way the defense is designed to be played. Don't cheat the game to beat it. That's all. :p

    And just like 95% of these rules, it's not even a big deal.

    By the way.... I may use this defense in the future, but I think I'll start in the 4-3.
     
  9. Dru50

    Dru50 Still Chicago's #1 son

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    The reason why these points about safety play came up was that early in the NCAA 2011 game cycle, there were guys using these defenses who were putting up 15-20 sacks and 30-35+ TFL with their SS's or racking up 30+ TFL with a FS.
     
  10. Danthraxxx

    Danthraxxx Walk On

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    That = doo-doo

    Never understood what is fun about that myself, but to each his own I guess. Glad this community froms upon such ;)
     
  11. Colemanchu

    Colemanchu GOAT SPLITTER

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    i hate the month before this game comes out.
     
  12. whygodwhy1111

    whygodwhy1111 Walk On

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    I think you will get more TFL with your SS than your LBs even if you did not blitz.. the 4-2-5 and 3-3-5 bipass the LB speed limit. Run block schemes are less accurate than against more standard defense. You get OLB that run faster, hit harder, and cover better than the majority of 95+ overall linebackers. When I used it in NCAA 10, the 4-2-5 blitz's from the actual LBs would penetrate most blocking schemes (similar to LB biltz from standard Nickel) and you can hot route them easily on any play with LB audible R-stick right and left.

    In my opinion:
    For personel reasons alone the duel SS formations are better . All SS are generally better at being LBs than actual LBs. The only things in the way are the massive Awareness hit for switching to LB and the speed restriction (Both of which are bypassed with duel SS sets). I would prefer not to see duel SS formation because I can't say I have seen them much in real football. Other than Rich Rod, and Air force I do not know any teams that used them. Unless you want to claim someone playing LB is actually a safety or hybrid, I can not think of any teams that use 4-2-5.​

    I do not have a problem with them being used in place of the nickle. Just as a standard defense.
     
  13. Dru50

    Dru50 Still Chicago's #1 son

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    So I understand - would you prefer to have both defenses not allowed as base sets?

    In NCAA 2010 the defenses were completely broken, as the OL would never even account for the SS's in run blocking. This was corrected to a great extent in 2011, where the defenses played more like a nickel set and if you attacked them with power running you could have good success (for example, I put up nearly 400 yards rushing vs a user running the 4-2-5 with almost nothing but HB dives and power O plays between the tackles in the Experience last year).

    Most of the guys in the premier dynasties don't use either defense, since someone who is good on offense from a strategy perspective can take advantage of the holes in those sets. Last year in T3 both were allowed as a base defense, but I don't recall anyone using them for more than one season. Everyone pretty much ran 4-3, 3-4 or the multiple playbook.
     
  14. whygodwhy1111

    whygodwhy1111 Walk On

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    Good point. Don;'t know if its broken until you try it. Although I expect the extra SS would still be advantagous.
     
  15. Dru50

    Dru50 Still Chicago's #1 son

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    Yeah - my preference would be to allow them initially, but if it becomes obvious that they are broken from an AI perspective we can deal with that after a season or two.
     
  16. whygodwhy1111

    whygodwhy1111 Walk On

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    maybe this year they will fix pitching
     
  17. recchem2000

    recchem2000 UCLA > WSU

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    4-2-5 / 3-3-5 base has always been cheese d in my book in past versions. I don't allow either in the Night Owls and doubt I will in the future. Most college teams use a base 3/4 or 4/3 so im good with those 2 choices.
     
  18. Dru50

    Dru50 Still Chicago's #1 son

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    I don't really like using either defense myself. Usually in the premier leagues it isn't an issue because no one uses them. Be assured, the reason I brought up this discussion is that I haven't played with many of you, and I know some people DO like using these defenses, and if someone uses it one of them in an inappropriate manner they will be banned (the defense, not the player).
     
  19. recchem2000

    recchem2000 UCLA > WSU

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    Im cool with that. I guess it just one of those things for me. Everyone I have run into that uses those 2 defenses always runs a bit of cheesey play with it...being controlling the safety or just the overall stupid blocking AI. I've played with most of these guys and have never had an issue so im sure this will not come up here.
     
  20. Jayrah

    Jayrah AllCougdUp.com Editor - A.M. avatar Guru

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    I have used 3-3-5, but never ctrl the S. Just de or lbs. I liked using it but had trouble with power running games, which I could see some of with ucla and stanford and Oregon and even cpu Washington. Not going to lose to the run when I know its coming because of defensive set.
     
  21. recchem2000

    recchem2000 UCLA > WSU

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    Oh I use the 3-3-5 too, but not as a base defense. I'll use it just to mix it up against 3 and 4 wide sets on 3rd and long or something along those lines. I don't have an issue with that. The only issues I've had is with user using these 2 as base defenses. But then again, it may just be the user I had a problem with...:) I don't really remember, im pushing 40, brain cells are dying quickly :p
     

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