A take on blocking logic

Discussion in 'NCAA Football' started by Drifterbub, Feb 16, 2010.

  1. Drifterbub

    Drifterbub Help me hide a body?

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    A take on blocking logic

    I saw this play in a user v user game and I came back to it after the game. It's a good example of something I saw in NCAA 2009 and this year's iteration and I thought I would share it with everyone. I want to first say that I am not complaining about the game or EA. However discouraged and frustrated I am with the situation represented in this example, I still thoroughly enjoy this game and this franchise. I think the following example is a good resource of why we have to create rules, and in some cases bans, on certain defensive formations in order to negate unrealistic advantages.

    [​IMG]
    1. PRE SNAP

    Initial look at the LOS: I-form strong lined up against a 5-2 with at least one and possibly two blitzing LBs inside the A-gaps. From an offensive standpoint, there is no problem here. The play call (figure 2) is a strong side 6-gap run with a pulling weak-side G. From a QB's perspective, you have to be worried about being over matched on the weak side if the MLB blitzes through the left A-gap, but since the play is outside the RT, it should not keep the play from developing.

    [​IMG]
    The Playcall

    This play is easily defended. In real life, the LT would know that the LG next to him is pulling and that he needs to cut the DT lined up in the B-gap. Knowing that the MLB is showing blitz, the C has to make a (logic based) choice. One of the cardinal rules of run blocking is to never, EVER let anyone come untouched through the A-gaps. Spoiler Alert! Someone comes free.


    [​IMG]


    Right off the bat my RT and TE both decided to try and block the same guy (DE), allowing two free defenders through what now is the B-gap. Then the left side of the line diverges as well. The C crosses the gap in which the LMLB is blitzing to block the LDT. The RG crosses another gap with a blitz to block the NT.


    [​IMG]

    As anticipated, the weak side MLB blitzes and comes through completely untouched with not even a banana peel in his way. This still isn't such a big problem as the pulling LG is now in front of the FB. Two blockers, two free defenders to block, the play isn't ruined yet. Yet. My FB, seeing the MLB in the corner of his eye, completely stops in his tracks and makes an unexplainable decision.

    [​IMG]

    The pulling G does his job and engages the first free body he sees while my TE is out picking daises with no one to block. The LEAD BLOCKING FB decides to reverse his run and block a defender that is behind the play AND the ball carrier.

    [​IMG]

    And what do you know? A 7 yard loss.


    Conclusion:
    I just don't understand the WR/TE interaction. It almost looks like the TE had ambitions of going behind the DE to block someone (which would be understanding if there were an OLB there to seal the edge). I can live with this and likely attribute it to the virtual equivalent of a blown blocking assignment. Not a problem. However, the FB changing direction to block someone who has little chance to make a tackle while staring down a free man on the play side is laughable at best.

    I would have zero problem with a defender shedding a block and making the tackle. Or perhaps the free blitzing MLB from the weak side grabbing the ball carriers ankles while the RB tries to find the hole. This is just one example of many plays I see during the course of a game that makes me wonder what logic offensive blockers use to diffuse a defensive scheme. I only hope that errors in fundamental football can someday be addressed with the aid of someone who is familiar with the intricacies of a sport we all love so much. Until then, this is a good example of why we have to create rules for leagues to prevent glitches like this from giving unfair advantages.
     
  2. Basis4aDay56

    Basis4aDay56 Walk On

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    Good post drift. As a former lineman, this game baffles me.
     
  3. Shaun Mason

    Shaun Mason Somebody you used to know.

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    The problem my friend is that few people who DESIGN these games UNDERSTAND football on this level. I think a fun test is to put the EA core gameplay team out with a college team and TEACH them technique, then they might begin to understand the complexity of blocking.
     
  4. King_CEPS_11

    King_CEPS_11 Walk On

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    I really wish they could get the blocking correct. That alone would make the gameplay twice as good IMO. I don't see why EA can't take the time to learn correct blocking schemes they seem to take a lot of time to learn other things.
     
  5. bravejaf

    bravejaf Walk On

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    Yeah they need to spend time on fixing football aspects of the game before throwing in gimmick features (Season Showdown).
     
  6. MurkYa21

    MurkYa21 Walk On

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    I'm calling someone from ncaastrategies to give his expertise on this topic
     
  7. Oneback

    Oneback Guest

    As I posted on Utopia the blocking AI gets confused more often as the run/pass block slider increases. Basically from testing I have found that there is an imaginary circle around each player, the higher the blocking sliders the larger the circle.

    There are two problems I see:

    1) a single blocker versus two defenders. Sometimes the blocker will get confused but will end up blocking atleast one defender which is fine...it may not always be the correct defender but I can atleast live with this outcome. Other times the blocker will become confused and just will not block anyone.

    2) two blockers versus one defender. In zone blocking situations this seems to work fine however in drive blocking situations this becomes a problem (ISO, Power-O, etc). What will sometimes happen is both blockers will go after the same defender because said defender is within both blockers "circle". One blocker will engadge while the other will completely miss and then wander aimlessly down the field allowing a stream of defenders to have a free run at your ball carrier. Not exactly ideal.

    What I have found is that when you move the blocking sliders down to '0' it cleans these situations up in a lot of cases. I've still seen these two issues happen from time to time but not even remotely as often. Basically the AI will no longer control blocking but play design and player attributes will.

    On the flip side the Pass Rush Slider and Run Defense slider now has to be adjusted. These sliders affect how quickly a defense reacts to either run or pass and also affects how quickly a defender sheds a block.

    What I have done in my OD is set both blocking sliders to 0 and then moved the defensive sliders to a point where everyone feels most comfortable. So far we have had some pretty good results.
     
  8. Dru50

    Dru50 Still Chicago's #1 son

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    Could you post some offensive sliders that you use with the blocking sliders set at 0? I'd love to try them out and see the difference from the sliders that we currently use in my OD.
     
  9. KnightNoles

    KnightNoles Learn to Compete

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    I hate giving this tip that many people dont use in the running game but using the offensive line blocking directions. the left trigger and left, right, aggressive, pinch can help
     
  10. BDSDIGITAL

    BDSDIGITAL One Time for your Mind

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    I use this all the time and it can really make a difference.
     
  11. BRUCE80

    BRUCE80 Let the dirt just shower over you..

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    I use it all the time in games for both run and pass and it helps alot and can also hurt you if you guess what the dline is doing wrong.

    I played football through college and have been invited back to coach DBs at the university but dont have the time with my full time job and family and think I have a pretty solid understanding of the game.

    We all need to remember while Drifters example is outstanding and happens far to often against almost every D the game has to offer.

    I am not banging on what drifter or anyone else has to say here because there is a level of truth to it all.

    Players miss blocks in real games, they get confused...they blow assignments...

    We know alot about beating blocking in video game used by cheaters called Nanos which arent allowed here and I dont think this is one of them...but NCAA has huge blocking flaws where a certain slant of a Dline vs a run play can end up in the QB getting tackled before he can hand off....thats lousy game design.

    Does it happen to often in NCAA 10? Yes, is it realistic they miss assignments and blocking schemes get confused by the D's allignment? Yes.

    Some plays just dont get blocked right for various reason and they fail, I hope that some of it is realism and know that alot of it is bad scheme design in the game.
     
  12. Drifterbub

    Drifterbub Help me hide a body?

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    Thanks Bruce for bringing that up because that is a point I wanted to make and completely forgot to mention it.

    Guys miss blocks, especially inexperienced guys. I can completely with the interaction between my RT and TE with the DL. That can be bought off as a simple missed assignment. However, I don't know what logic can explain my FB interaction. I don't get it, both defenders that are free are equal distance from him. Only one of them is in the way.


    This was a UvU game, so sliders weren't an issue. I don't see as much of this against the CPU, probably because the run blocking is reduced on our slider set. I would hope there are more factors in blocking success/logic than just the run blocking slider, though.
     
  13. Papa Perry

    Papa Perry Leeroy Jenkins!!!

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    Dru, if you follow the NCAA strategies link you can find them. I went home and used them on my lunch break and they are incredible. I took Victory Road offline and played against Cincinatti in the 3rd year and I felt like I was watching a game on TV. I ended up winning 31-28 but it was on a FG with :39 left in the game. Also (GASP) you can successfully run out of shotgun with these sliders. As far as the CPU pass rush goes, my weaker O-Lineman is my LT. Guess where the majority of the sacks and pressure come from: the left side. I'll play another game tonight and post full stats and vids. I think this could revolutionize some of the dynasties I'm in that 40-50 points are consistantly scored against the high-rated CPU teams (cough, cough: C2C).

    On Drifter's posted issue:

    I think the logic is just something that we have to hope is messed with. I know nothing about making video games but I know everything can fall under the same old saying: Nothing/Nobody is perfect. The issues you brought up do irritate me aswell. Nothing is better than one of those big WTF Moments.
     
  14. Dru50

    Dru50 Still Chicago's #1 son

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    Cool, I will try them out tonight, since I am waiting for my OD's to advance.
     
  15. KnightNoles

    KnightNoles Learn to Compete

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    ohh. Mister Impatient
     
  16. Papa Perry

    Papa Perry Leeroy Jenkins!!!

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    Yea I'm in the same boat. I'm not blaming anyone but these dead periods are the reason I joined TF4. The funny thing about that is I'm started off with a feakin' off week.
     
  17. Dru50

    Dru50 Still Chicago's #1 son

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    Nah, nature of the beast, I understand how it goes.
     
  18. Dru50

    Dru50 Still Chicago's #1 son

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    Papa, how was the running game with user RBA set at 30? That seems really low since with it set at 40 speed backs get run down routinely by DE and DT's.
     
  19. Papa Perry

    Papa Perry Leeroy Jenkins!!!

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    It was ok. I haven't really ever had a good running game with NC State but I was able to move the ball on the ground if need be. Plus Cincy has probably the best CPU controlled 3-4 I have ever played against no matter what the sliders are. Which I don't really have the stick skills on offense like I do on defense.
     
  20. skipwondah33

    skipwondah33 Walk On

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    I'd like know what the blocking logic of these plays were


    The very first showing in replay 1 is real time speed. Notice how the DT stands completely up, pauses slightly then takes off with a lightning quick burst around 3 offensive lineman and not one of them knows what to do or lays a hand on him. In the 2nd part of the replay the same exact thing happens. The LG has him right in front of him and he literally goes right around him with ease.

    [YOUTUBE]<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/zQLJfgXbmD8&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/zQLJfgXbmD8&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>[/YOUTUBE]


    The next replay shows that all 3 follow him again, even the RG which makes no sense seeing as how he ran a circle to the other side of the line. What does that do, leaves the DE free to run basically past the RT with no time once again.

    [YOUTUBE]<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/XrzYumMNyhs&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/XrzYumMNyhs&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>[/YOUTUBE]
     
  21. Dru50

    Dru50 Still Chicago's #1 son

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    I tested out Oneback's sliders last night with one of my OD teams, focusing mostly on the CPU's offense and my ability to run the ball from shotgun formations. I have to say I was surprised and very impressed with the gameplay. The blockers actually attempted to block players that made sense, there were running lanes even from shotgun sets and the running game felt just right. I could bounce runs outside without constantly being run down by DT and DE's, but not every run worked. Sometimes blockers would miss blocks, but not nearly to the point I've seen in other games using the sliders most of us use now.

    I think they need more testing, but I think it would be great if one of the OD's here tested them out for a period to see how they work with more games as a baseline.
     
  22. Papa Perry

    Papa Perry Leeroy Jenkins!!!

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    The Rivalry will be adopting them for their bowl games. I'm interested in seeing how they work out for everyone else. One big suggestion I make is that everyong uses all normal gameplan settings. I took C2C offline and used them and went 3OT against a good Auburn team and smothered a good LSU team that didn't have their starting QB which had a lot to do with the game. Now this is an OD that I have beat really good teams by 50-60 points. I think INT's should be bumped up a little though.
     
  23. jdrhammer

    jdrhammer S E C Speed

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    Could someone post Oneback's sliders here if it's ok? I'm at work and using my I-phone so posting them here would help. I tried the sliders at 0 for a game last night and the pass rush killed my qb. It was against a very fast OL unit and the initial contact was good but they didn't hold blocks and the ends would just swim right past the OL.
     
  24. Papa Perry

    Papa Perry Leeroy Jenkins!!!

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    All you have to do is lower the pass rush slider. What do you have it at?
     
  25. jdrhammer

    jdrhammer S E C Speed

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    Pass rush is either at 30 or 40. 30 I believe. I've gradually lowered it. I had raised pass block to 60.
     

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