ATTENTION: League Rule Vote

Discussion in 'The Experience' started by Shaun Mason, Aug 30, 2010.

  1. Shaun Mason

    Shaun Mason Somebody you used to know.

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    ATTENTION: League Rule Vote

    Guys,

    Basis, Gators and I have been discussing wide receivers usage regarding the slot. What the argument boils down to use depth chart position vs rating. A number of people in this league use formation subs to create a mismatch between their #1 or #2 receiver and the nickel back/dime back/linebacker.

    Before I get into specifics, let me be clear:

    I want the league to vote on this, but I DO NOT want it to get personal as some of our threads have in the past. We are only 2 season's into a new iteration of the game and we are trying to figure out what is best for competitiveness and fairness in the league. Keep your points related to this issue and free of personal attacks.

    Anyway, to be more concrete, the issue in this particular instance is the depth chart adjustments made by Gators with Florida. He has Chris Rainey as his #3 (slot receiver) and has used formation subs to put him in at the #2 receiver in sets that have only two receivers.

    I will allow them to elaborate, but Gator is of the opinion that because Rainey is very small (5'9") he is not an effective flanker and his skill set is more appropriate to a slot receiver. He also uses him on occasion motioned into the backfield for running plays ala Percy Harvin.

    Basis is of the opinion it is advantageous for Rainey to line up there because the defense cannot match up by using their most talented corner in the slot. He also contends that while Rainey is very athletic, his route running/hands do not simulate a typical slot receiver that is more of a possession type receiver.

    I do want to say that Gator's isn't the only one who uses their best receiver in the slot at least some of the time. I know everyone I have played so far in NCAA '11 has done that (except maybe jello?) at least a few times. I have done it with Devier Posey at times.
    ---

    My personal opinion is that it is appropriate to occasionally line your best WR inside. Times I feel this is appropriate are when the defense has been using a base set against your 3 wide and you feel it is necessary to point out the ineffectiveness of using a LB on a good receiver. The point is to get the defense to shift to a defense where they can matchup better.

    I think the real issue here is that Rainey is a freak speed wise. I have never played anyone that fast, but I'm not sure the AI safeties will give him the correct amount of space so he doesn't get behind the defense if he runs a Go route.

    ---

    So, if everyone could vote:

    A) It is OK to use a WR out of depth chart order. (i.e. depth chart not in order of overall)
    B) It is OK to occasionally line up your best WR in the slot, as long as it is in appropriate situations.
    C) It is NOT OK to use a WR out of depth chart order.
    D) Other, please explain.
     
  2. Shaun Mason

    Shaun Mason Somebody you used to know.

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    Also, I am extending the weekly advance until tomorrow evening so dakota7, myself possibly and Gators/Basis can play. The above issue needs to be resolved in some issue so they can play. I'm not making anyone take a sim here.
     
  3. GoGators

    GoGators GT: KSherm

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    I'd like to point out that Rainey is NOT my best WR. He's my #2 WR. Deonte Thompson is my flat out #1 WR and stays outside always. He's 6'0" and has similar attributes to Rainey, but because he's one of my biggest WR's right now, I use him outside. Also, he has the route running ability and other attributes to beat corners 1 on 1.

    Rainey for that matter, is only at WR in this game because at UF this season they have moved him out of the HB position and into the Percy position. He's not a true WR and doesn't have the skill set for it. He's essentially playing the reggie bush and percy harvin role where he's a mismatch nightmare for defenses and thus gets lined up all over the field to take advantage of his abilities. If you take speed, acceleration, and agility out of the equation, Hines who is 6'0" and plays my typical outside position, is greater in all receiving attributes across the board.

    I believe Basis' perception of the slot WR to be incorrect. I'll again use Percy Harvin as an example, he was never a good route runner and he still isn't after a year in the pros. He doesn't have the best hands as they were a question mark about him going in the draft. Yet, Florida used him almost exclusively in the slot. Same with Reggie Bush. These guys get put in the slot and in the backfield to create mismatches on linebackers and safeties. This is the exact same thing that happens in the game. You've never seen a team in the SEC or Pac-10 try to put their #1 CB on Percy or Reggie. You simply can't because you don't know where he'll line up. Instead, you'll see teams try to bracket him by bringing safety help or playing zone, all of which can be replicated in the game.

    Lastly, Rainey played slot all last season and after 3 or 4 user games I didn't have one complaint in how he was utilized.
     
  4. GoGators

    GoGators GT: KSherm

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    I'd also point out from an overall stand point, Rainey is only 4 clicks better than Hines so it's not like I have an 80 guy at #2 and a 95 guy at #2. And just to qualify this, there's other guys in this dynasty who have players with much higher differentiated overalls starting in place of a higher rated overall.
     
  5. dakota7

    dakota7 Former Blue Chip Recruit

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    Thanks for holding the advance.

    I think situationally, moving a higher rated WR around is ok, particularly a guy like Rainey who is small and fast and can be used for slot options etc. Taking a big receiver and moving him in the slot regularly wouldn't be as sim, IMO.
     
  6. GoGators

    GoGators GT: KSherm

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    Also, to make sure all the facts are out there, here's the ratings for the two players in question:


    Column 1
    Rainey Att Hines
    5'9" Hght 6'
    92 OVR 88
    97 SPD 91
    99 AGI 91
    99 ACC 95
    74 AWR 55
    79 BTK 54
    97 ELU 77
    85 CRY 65
    81 CTH 86
    80 SPC 81
    72 CIT 83
    75 RR 84
    78 JMP 84
    81 REL 85


    So as you can see, Hines has the greater skill set in all receiving attributes, especially those required to take on top tier CB's, route running, release, jump, size, catch, & catch in traffic. Rainey has the advantage in all the skill sets required to run jet sweeps and catch underneath balls for the catch and run.
     
  7. Big Suge Knight

    Big Suge Knight Walk On

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    I agree with Dakota. The smaller guy in the slot makes sense. very few of the "little" guys have great success on the edges. I wish they would tune for better slot coverage play.
     
  8. Basis4aDay56

    Basis4aDay56 Walk On

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    My whole perception of the slot receiver is a safety valve for the offense. In that case, it is my opinion that a bigger, slower receiver with great hands and the ability to run routes that make linebackers and nickle corners fall out of their shoes are much more realistic.

    My main point of contention arises from how crazy fast AND quick Rainey is, and how utilizing that actually breaks down the AI for the defense. Against the CPU, I don't really care, if that is how you would like to play, that is fine. If I had the option to pick who covered whom for the entire game, I would think that having a Rainey-type in the slot would be much more reasonable.

    In general, my opinion that it is more sim to have your 2nd best WR at #2 on the depth chart and use the occasional package sub/formation sub to move him to the slot than to have him #3 and formation sub him to #2 on the depth chart. I think it should be used sparingly, but I think it is a fair tactic to mix it up a bit for sure.

    Also, Shaun, you speak to the fact that people are moving their better receivers into the slot on the regular. This is something that I was unaware of, and was kind of shocked by. There are formations that, by default, move your #1 or #2 receiver into the slot, but I would kind of be disappointed if everyone was doing this. The exploitation of AI coverage with slot receivers for the past few editions of NCAA Football have been well documented.

    Just my $0.02 guys.
     
  9. Shaun Mason

    Shaun Mason Somebody you used to know.

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    I don't mean regularly...I mean I have seen them there. Like I said...I do it to get teams out of the 4-3 when I am running 3 wide. Honestly I do it more in The Deuce because I need to spread the field so I can mix in the run. Here I have Stoneburner who is a matchup nightmare at TE.
     
  10. JCspartan2

    JCspartan2 Sparty Party

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    I'm kinda on the fence with this one. I've never moved my #1 or #2 guys into the #3 position. Last season I had my fastest WR in the slot, but he was also my 3rd best WR so I didn't have to move him. This season I have my slowest guy in the slot, but he is great after the catch so I feel it's still advantageous for me to have him there. I agree with Basis that moving one of your top 2 WRs does take advantage of the CPU AI, as unfortunate as that is. However, I don't see too much of a problem with doing it, especially in Gators' situation. Few teams in real life would line up a 5'9 speedster on the outside in a 3 WR or 4 WR set unless he was running a quick slant or drag route. There are many examples of this, some of which have already been mentioned, such as Harvin, Bush, Santana Moss on the Redskins..etc.

    If I had to vote, I'd vote for option B. I think you should be allowed to tailor your offense to your players' skill sets, but because the CPU AI isn't up to snuff this issue does need to be limited to an extent. I like what Basis added about having a guy like Rainey in his rightful spot on the depthchart and using the occasional formation sub to move him into the slot.
     
  11. Basis4aDay56

    Basis4aDay56 Walk On

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    Okay, thanks for clarifying -- haha! I got really nervous there for a minute. Like I said I think it is completely reasonable and falls under mixing up playcalling to have that #2 line up in the slot occasionally.

    My issue is with the AI's reaction to such a speedster being in the slot, and the only defense being that he is small so that's the only position he can play. There have been countless small slot receivers, and countless big receivers, and their key attributes are not their speed. Their key attributes are their route running, their catching in traffic, and their general catching ability. Guys that are burners ONLY typically play outside, regardless of their size. I know in previous years of the game, size never mattered -- just the attributes did. I'm pretty sure the same is still true. Meaning, a 5'8" corner can get as high as a 6'4" wideout that can't jump very well. Is that realistic? Not really, but it is how the game is programmed.
     
  12. jello1717

    jello1717 "Those who stay will be champions." -- Bo

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    In general I would prefer to have the receivers in order from best to worst and to have the top 2 guys on the outside. I wouldn't have a problem with a more talented slower guy in the slot. However, I'd have a big problem with a more talented, very fast guy in the slot as I think he'd be nearly unstoppable. This is mainly due to the limitations of the game in the sense that we can't match up our corners with the receivers of our choice. If we could tell the game to always have CB#1 on their top receiver, then it'd be fine, but we can't.

    I think this is very similar to last year's "wildcat" rule that most TF leagues had. In essence, if you had a pocket QB and a running QB, you couldn't swap them out willy-nilly play by play. The argument that "they do it in real life" didn't work because in real life, the defense knew that Denard Robinson just trotted on the field whereas in NCAA '10, the defense had no idea if the pocket QB or running QB was in the game. This is fixed in '11 since we can see the QB's number so you can swap out as often as you like. We had to implement the "wildcat" rule based on a limitation with the game, regardless of whether or not it was "sim" to swap out QBs anytime. I see this slot receiver issue as being in the same vein. Due to a limitation in the game, we can't match up our good (or fast) corners on your good (or fast) receivers no matter which position they're in.

    Because of that, I vote for not moving really fast, more talented receivers into the slot (but I don't have an issue with moving a more talented slow receiver into the slot).

    The biggest problem with this, however, is for spread teams because almost all WR running plays (jet sweeps, WR motion options, slot options) are for the slot receiver and no one wants to run an option with their 6'4, 87 SPD, 85 ACC receiver. I'd guess this is probably one of the main reasons why Gators has Rainey in the slot. I don't know how much you guys look @ my stats, but I run a lot with my receivers (they only have 7 carries this year, but last year I probably averaged at least 3 carries per game by them). I've been fortunate because my top 3 receivers are all equal (91, 91, 90) and all have either good speed or good acceleration, but if I had my obvious #3 receiver sporting low speed and low acceleration, it'd take away a big part of my game plan if I couldn't run jet sweeps and WR motion options any more.
     
  13. Psycho

    Psycho Walk On

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    I vote no, never, ever, ever...

    My issue is not real life, real life you can tell your second fast or fastest DB to "stick to that f**ker, no matter where he goes." I do not like "created mismatch" offensives in video games. In real life if you have a bad match up, you nail him and nail him and nail him, hell if you got a TE mismatch in real life you cheese the hell out of the opposing teams defense and it's up to the Coach to decide who the hell can guard the guy without you switching to another target.... but not in video game world. In the video game world you can't assign defensive backs to guard that f**k'r... well not in NCAA. and Madden it still has it's flaws.

    In real life slot receivers are the guys you want to catch the ball because they are the guys you normally have dudes rubbing their defenders off them, and often times the best slots are your fast bastards (Percy, Heyward-Bey, Don BeeBee, Roscoe Parrish), in the video game world there needs to be an exercise in caution because you have got to remember, if the guy goes man his #1 or #2 Cb is not going to automatically pick up on the switch. You think Deon Sanders never covered a slot receiver because he was CB #1?

    I for one can, and will use hot route to make sure that if I see the guys #1 guy or at least his #1 look (leading receiver om the team is always the one I consider the #1 WR regardless of the depth chart), but I think it is to much to ask for of the whole league to do this, and beside when dealing with lag, and the fact that sometimes it's hard to recognize where their #1 threat is... well it's sometimes impossible to even make that adjustment on a regular basis.

    Issue here should not be focused on real life or not real life, it should be focused on fairness. For the fairness of a video game your slot receiver should always err on the side of caution and be a possession receiver, if in fact there is a question on whose #1 or #2 and who's #3, and they should never lead your team in catches (for the season... a game or two it happens, but to go to the slot the most is a little uncalled for).

    I felt really bad when Gator brought up the flipping WRs so I could hit AJ Green on the fly because his other Cb was covering him like a blanket, and it was time to test teh other CB. He did bring it up as a "good call coach" and not as a negative, but I still felt bad, because in real life his #1 CB would have been on AJ, even though AJ was on the other side of the field. I never thought about that when I selected that play and flipped the formation (1HB, 1FB 2TEs, and 1 WR), so the reason AJ was being covered by a #2 CB is just because I flipped the play, no formation sub, package change, or purposeful act to get a better match up. I flipped it to have more room to throw the ball down the wide side of the field. I would rather my best go against the best Florida has to offer, if I can't do that then I don't deserve to complete that ball... hence why from now that point on I've tried hard ont to flip that formation, and I'm pretty sure I have/will only run that formation with the WR on the right side of the field.

    On to the WR in the backfield:
    I don't like it one bit, and my issue is it once again throws cpu AI into a loop, where a human on the field would clearly be able to recognize it and adjust. Now the fact that he was a HB and converted to WR, still doesn't grandfather him in. Later on down the road when we all have recruited guys on our team this will be illegal anyways.

    Less concerned whose WR #3 on a stacked team:
    Of course the last thing is are we strictly talking about Florida and a talented rich WR core, versus a good receiving core and one super star... I do have less of an issue with Florida, and anyone else that's is stacked, because as Basis has already coincided the point that I'm making, doesn't matter who the hell you put in that spot, matching up with all 3 Wrs will be a pain in the ass anyways. So I don't agree with it, but I wouldn't have a problem with it. Oh and for the love of god I don't ever want to hear again, "If you take away spd, acc, and agi, Hines is my better receiver." :confused: Come on man, you got to chuckle a little bit when you read that statement. :D

    BTW - the last comment is not suppose to be a flame, just tickled me when I read it. what I brought up was a discussion, but when you see humor in a discussion, I need to throw it out there and have fun with it. (y).... (n)
     
  14. Psycho

    Psycho Walk On

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    Jello just simplified the 8 page 4 hour post that I made while he posted this one. (y)
     
  15. blLL flo

    blLL flo BTFU!

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    I use formation subs to move my receivers around. I don't think there is a problem with it unless you're constantly abusing it. My fastest WR is #3 on the depth chart, but he isn't always in the slot. I think a Rainey type player is few and far between, thus he is a mismatch nightmare like Gators stated.
     
  16. Hova

    Hova Live Action. YiYiYi!

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    I never use formation subs on WRs. I may call some plays where the #1 is lined up there in that particular formation as designed by the playbook, not sure. I guess I really have no problem with it though.
     
  17. Shaun Mason

    Shaun Mason Somebody you used to know.

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    Tally thus far:

    2 - A) It is OK to use a WR out of depth chart order. (i.e. depth chart not in order of overall) (Gators, Hova)
    4 - B) It is OK to occasionally line up your best WR in the slot, as long as it is in appropriate situations. (Shaun, Dakota, Suge, blLL flo)
    3 - C) It is NOT OK to use a WR out of depth chart order. (Basis, Jello, Psycho)
    0 - D) Other, please explain.

    Still wiating for Dru, JC and Masler to vote. If you don't agree with where I put you in the vote, let me know...I'm trying my best.
     
  18. GoGators

    GoGators GT: KSherm

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    I have absolutely zero understanding of why you would feel bad about this. Football, like chess, is about strategy and putting your pieces in position to be successful. Leaving your #1 against my shutdown CB all game is not chess, it's checkers and is very boring in my opinion. I have every tool necessary in the game to make adjustments to where ever you line AJ Green up. And just as in real life, I would not shadow AJ Green all over the field with my #1 CB. We never did it at UF with Joe Haden. If AJ went to Janoris Jenkins' side, than JJ covered him. Now he may have gotten a little more help from the FS or the LB's might try to bracket him more to give help, but again, that's all replicatable in the game. The only reason that play was successful against me was because you caught me napping and I had cover 0 w/Moses Jenkins on AJ 1 on 1 and AJ rightfully won the battle. Typically there'd be a safety over the top on that play but as I said, I was napping. So I tip my hat to you for putting me to sleep with your "watching paint dry" offense and then striking. (y)




    I don't mean this to be offensive, but I find this statement hypocritical. For the first year, we actually have been given a game by EA where ratings besides speed actually matter, and now for the convenience of this argument, you're saying they don't.
     
  19. JCspartan2

    JCspartan2 Sparty Party

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    I voted last night, must have gotten looked over. I said B.
     
  20. Dru50

    Dru50 Still Chicago's #1 son

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    I would vote for B.

    I think it's ok to occasionally formation sub your #1 or #2 WR to the slot, but it should not be allowed to flat out put your 2nd best WR as your slot in all 3 and 4 wide packages. As jello and psycho pointed out, if defenses had the ability to match up a specific corner on a specific receiver all game, I'd feel differently.

    Normally with a team like Florida I'd say it doesn't matter, because Gators #4 WR is almost as athletic as Rainey. My concern is going forward when teams may only have 1 super athlete, and if we allow people to put their best athlete in the slot I think it causes issues.

    All that said, if we are going to allow it, I think you have to allow it all (ie - if Gators can use Rainey in the slot, then there really shouldn't be restrictions on where WR's play in the depth chart). I think it causes more problems for shaun if you try and make him judge how much is ok, cause it will always just turn into differences in perspective.

    On the topic of reality, I could point out several examples of some of the finest slot WR's who are not super athletic (Welker, Chrebet, T. Waddle) but were quick in short spaces and caught everything thrown to them, several examples of why it's not really accurate to say that all slot WR's are small fast guys (on my own team the Bears have Hester and Knox, neither of whom can play the slot because they can't run routes or catch in traffic) but that's a whole different discussion to me. As Psycho said, the video game plays very different from real life.
     
  21. GoGators

    GoGators GT: KSherm

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    What does "B" even mean? I have no idea what an appropriate situation would be.
     
  22. Dru50

    Dru50 Still Chicago's #1 son

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    An example of an appropriate situation to me would be if you have a tall WR and put him in the slot to run a fade in the red zone.

    But to my earlier point, I think it really probably has to be all or none.

    Shaun, change my vote to C please.
     
  23. Psycho

    Psycho Walk On

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    No offense. This is a just a rules discussion.

    Speed may not matter as much because of the locomotion, but the speed, acceleration, and agility combo is just as deadly as last years speed only. Now the bright side to this is inorder to be just as deadly as last year you need all three pieces of that puzzle, and not just the speed, which then makes just a small group of guys deadliy as hell... which is the way it should be.

    Take a look at my running attack. King went out last year leaving me with a guy with 2-4 points better speed, acc, and agi, and he ran like Barry Sanders. Now that Kings back, I get the normal 100 yards per game, and average 4-5 yards per carry.
     
  24. GoGators

    GoGators GT: KSherm

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    I don't think we're watching the same sport. Never in my life have I seen a slot guy run a fade route in the red zone. Maybe a flag route, but never a fade. A fade route is the Randy Moss, Plaxico Burress, Terrell Owens specialty, box out the smaller CB, put him on your back, and go up and catch the ball.


    I do agree that it has to be all or none. This navigating the gray with all these rules is a load of crap haha. Any time Rainey or someone like him catches multiple balls from the slot, it's going to look skeptical. I'd also argue that if we are required to keep our depth chart in order for WR's, then it should be like that for ALL positions. If I'm not allowed to use a system style player to play the slot position as I see fit in my offense, then why should someone else be allowed to play a system player at RB or QB?

    How is it different for a slot WR to create mismatches for the defense than a HB who is a big bruiser and ridiculously difficult to tackle? Or a QB who is faster and a scrambler? Or a QB who is only more accurate?
     
  25. JCspartan2

    JCspartan2 Sparty Party

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    Alright, well if it going to be all or nothing, I change my vote to A.
     

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