Cap Issue Perhaps?

Discussion in 'Thread Archive' started by Big D, Aug 17, 2010.

  1. Big D

    Big D Walk On

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    Cap Issue Perhaps?

    Browsing all of the cap books and something came to my attention that seems a bit off. . .

    Darrel Revis, the top rated cornerback in the game, is making $8 million. Center Nick Mangold, not rated as high as revis, has a salary of $12 million. That doesn't seem right to me. . .

    Something we should look at changing perhaps?
     
  2. Winuvas

    Winuvas OMFL Jets

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    There will always be a few bugs that need working out. However, to allow movement of offensive linemen across the line, we had to make all the Oline as valuable as a LT as far as starters go. Unfortunately this means that in the case of quality (95+) offensive linemen, they will make more than a lot of players. However, this number is proportionally smaller than the amount of quality corners/safeties and the like.

    Rather than make one CB more valuable than the rest, we decided to do a balanced setup with three corners having an equal modifier (since most teams try to have 3 quality corners with the NFL doing 3 WR sets a lot nowadays). We did the same thing with WR as well, using the same logic.

    Personally, I don't think it's that big an issue. If you have an idea on how to balance it, though, I'm listening.

    If Sci has a problem paying more to Mangold than Revis, he needs to give me a good solution to balance for all 32 teams and quickly.
     
  3. natedawg212000

    natedawg212000 New Orleans Saints

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    Well I thought we had different prices for different positions on the oline. if a c is playing lt then they are still a center. either way. doesnt matter. it won't be fool proof but ill leave it to people who are way smarter than I am.
     
  4. wajomatik

    wajomatik Magister De Puer De Vacca

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    Hmmm it is a bit of a pickle
     
  5. Jeremy

    Jeremy The ONLY 2 time OMFL CHampion!!!!

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    That situation is the exception and not the rule.
    There are probably only a small handful of cases like that and changing anything this far into the game isn't smart.
     
  6. Winuvas

    Winuvas OMFL Jets

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    I agree. There will be some small tidbits like that. For example, Steve Hutchinson at LG is like that and a few other Oline will be like that. But it will be very few and far between and more aberrations than commonplace, in all honesty.
     
  7. Big D

    Big D Walk On

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    I honestly have to disagree fellas.

    Example #2:

    JAGUARS

    CB Cox (82 ovr): $2 million salary
    RG Nwaneri (81 ovr): $3 million salary

    I think everybody here would agree that my #2 cornerback Cox is MUCH more valuable than a middling offensive lineman. Yet Nwaneri is paid 50% more than Cox, even tho Cox is rated higher.


    EXAMPLE #3:

    A teams #1 WR who is rated 90ovr will make $3 million
    A teams #1 RG who is rated 86ovr will make $4.5 million!!!

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    It may be too late in the game to change this I suppose, but this is a fairly large issue in my mind, when G and C are getting paid more than a teams #1 WR and CB!!!! Something definately to look at changing before Season 2.
     
  8. Big D

    Big D Walk On

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    Another Example:

    Seattle Seahawks:

    #2 HB Julius Jones (77 ovr): $2.8 million
    CB Josh Wilson (84 ovr): $2.0 million

    Their #2 HB is making more than a starting CB. . .
     
  9. Winuvas

    Winuvas OMFL Jets

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    When I get home and get situated I can try fiddling with the CBs modifiers, but I am afraid that the Colts will go above cap with that.

    I could raise the #1 CB to a 3 modifier, or do #1 CB at 4 and #2 CB at 3, with a third CB at the 2 modifier, but this makes it more confusing I feel.

    I'll tinker when I get home but unless there is a massive upswell about the salaries, I think it will cause more headaches than not.

    Also, not trying to be rude, but where was this checking of salaries two weeks ago when I was asking for input? Just curious, and not trying to be mean, but I did ask for feedback.
     
  10. Big D

    Big D Walk On

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    I'm not trying to be rude, but everytime I point out something I think could be changed about this sytem I get attacked.

    Are we supposed to be "yes men" here or not?
     
  11. Winuvas

    Winuvas OMFL Jets

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    Not at all. I don't mind looking into some of these proposals. I just wish the feedback was raised a little sooner than right before the season.

    I will do some checking into values for CBs and see if I can make it balanced. If it is, then we can change it before the season and there is no harm, no foul. However, if it makes the Colts have to cut players to get under cap, then it's not fair to Dave when no other team will have to cut players to get under cap.

    I'm willing to change it. My only concern is the sudden amount of feedback when we are close to a season beginning when this was in place a few weeks ago. I asked for feedback then, and I realize that you were away with work stuff during some of that time, Dunlap.
     
  12. Big D

    Big D Walk On

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    Remember, I said let's look at implementing this for Season 5! With mandy cuts Colts wont have an issue then.
     
  13. Winuvas

    Winuvas OMFL Jets

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    I do apologize, Dunlap. I did NOT see that until you mentioned it in this post above. I went back and looked and you did say that, so that is my fault for not totally reading your posts. My bad.

    I will download a cap book offline and tinker with numbers for season 2. I'll try to have a few prototypes in place that we can vote on by midseason, if not sooner. I am also open to suggestions here for any changes to the modifiers as far as tinkering with them.

    So if you have any ideas, fire away. I will say though that I still think the starters of the offensive line should stay the same modifier, mainly because of the potential for cheating the system (stuff such as moving expensive players to other positions to make them cheaper). I am willing to listen on this one though.

    Cornerbacks I never felt comfortable with the lower modifier but tried to balance it with putting more modified players there. I agree that they are lower priced, but it was done to make the Colts under cap.

    Halfbacks I am willing to go 4-3-2 so there is a bit of a difference between #1 and #2.

    If there are any other spots I need to think about, let's discuss them now while the fire is hot.
     
  14. Big D

    Big D Walk On

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    Frisk and I have been discussing some possibilities on AIM.

    What about this. . .made the base salary lower, but have a much wider range of modifiers, such as 1-15 instead of 1-5. This way you could have much more differentiation!

    The second possibility would be to come up with a salary scale for each position, and just do away with modifiers. We could do some investigation of salary ranges for each position in the real NFL and do that.

    Either of these options would fix our problem and be able to keep Colts under the cap.
     
  15. Winuvas

    Winuvas OMFL Jets

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    I'm trying to see how 1-15 would be bigger differentiation than 1-5. I think I understand what you mean though: similar to the idea for doing each individual overall point as a different base salary/bonus. The only problem I see (which if Frisk can give me a way to fix it I'm cool with, since he's better with Excel than I am) is the formula for putting the base salary and bonus in would be painfully long unless there is some other way I am not seeing.

    Your second possibility would create a possibility for headache for those owners who are not as good at doing the numbers side. However, if we can talk about the possibilities here if you are interested in doing so.
     
  16. Emmdotfrisk

    Emmdotfrisk Working half days on my days off.

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    yeah there is a couple of different ways to go about this....

    I was looking at average salary per position here...

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/mu...l.average.salaries.by.position/content.1.html

    Quarterback - $1,970,982
    Defensive End - $1,583,784
    Offensive Lineman - $1,267,402
    Defensive Tackle - $1,223,925
    Cornerback - $1,193,666
    Linebacker - $1,175,788
    Wide Receiver - $1,054,437
    Running Back - $957,360
    Safety - $947,887
    Punter/Kicker - $868,005
    Tight End - $863,414


    Each OVR point has an individual Base Salary. Then we could establish a range of 1-20 modifiers for each position, for example #1 WR, RE, MLB, #1 CB, Nickel CB, QB, Backup QB, the list goes on. Each of the modifier's will affect the base salary determined from OVR. That is basically what we have now but this would be a bit more elaborate.
     
  17. natedawg212000

    natedawg212000 New Orleans Saints

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    Wow guys. A, I am disappointed in the inner fighting. I am backing up Win here, we asked for input almost a month ago. Don't play this copout card of you getting attacked, that's simply not true. B, now we are talking, again, about totally revamping the whole cap book , the whole system, and everything. Just won't be good for our owners or our guys who have put in a ton of work already. I say we make some tweaks and keep rolling. If we wanted a major overhaul of the way we thought we all decided to go, then this is a pretty bad time to do that. Again, I feel that in the safety of our board room I can give my true feelings without being labeled as a mean hateful person. I am not telling anyone to do anything, I am simply giving my input of what I feel.

    Either way, this is a HUGE issue that needs to be decided quickly.
     
  18. Emmdotfrisk

    Emmdotfrisk Working half days on my days off.

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    I was under the impression that we were rolling as planned for season 1 and were talking about ways to improve for season 2, am I incorrect in assuming that?
     
  19. natedawg212000

    natedawg212000 New Orleans Saints

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    Well if it's broke it's broke, let's try and fix it. If we want a total revamp then yes, I agree we can talk about that for next season.
     
  20. Emmdotfrisk

    Emmdotfrisk Working half days on my days off.

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    definitely not broke, win did a great job. But we could elaborate on it, thats just my opinion.
     
  21. natedawg212000

    natedawg212000 New Orleans Saints

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    Yes sir, I am open to any suggestions. I think we all are. I haven't even looked or had input since spending time with Win when we unveiled it.
     
  22. Winuvas

    Winuvas OMFL Jets

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    I am open to other input for season two modifications.

    I would like us to see how it works through a few weeks at most and then make a decision then on whether it needs the tweaks we are thinking about.

    I am NOT saying that I don't want us to continue throwing ideas out here. I do want us to see how this rolls out with the public first and see what kind of feedback THEY have. It's as much for them as for us.

    Let's keep hitting on these modifiers that Frisk is talking about. If I have a chance this week I will try to hop on AIM and talk with anyone, maybe even due a conference setup so we can talk in private but still talk at the same time about ideas.

    I'm not nieve enough to assume that my cap book is 100% foolproof. Hopefully you can throw out some ideas that we can implement and get this puppy even better and more real than it is.
     
  23. Winuvas

    Winuvas OMFL Jets

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    Okay, here is a link for BOARD MEMBERS EYES ONLY.....

    https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc...UlNaU1nWWpPVzZKRVp4U3c&hl=en&authkey=CI_Tq_MK

    This is a cap book as we have it right now, but with some modifications. I will list modifications that I have made, then will say something I would like to see implemented in season 2, if this cap book is still like it is now for the most part:

    HB - Changed the #2 HB to a 3 modifier instead of a 4 modifier. All else is unchanged.
    CB - Changed the #1 CB to a 4 modifier. Changed the #2 CB to a 3 modifier. The rest of the CB modifiers remain unchanged.

    Now, with this small change, I have one idea I would like to see in season 2: defensive modifiers. Depending on whether you declare yourself a 4-3 or a 3-4 defense, the modifiers change for the defensive side of the ball ONLY. Each offseason a team must declare after their offseason begins.

    Let me know what you guys think.
     
  24. Big D

    Big D Walk On

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    I like everything above with a couple exceptions:

    1) Increase the #1 WR to a 3 modifier
    2) Increase #1 DT to a 3 modifier
    3) Decrease #2 MLB to a #2 modifier

    With changes number 2 and 3, you won't have to declare your defense. The #2 DT and #2 MLB would make the same money, so both a 4-3 and 3-4 guy are paying a backup the same modifier. This won't discriminate against us 4-3 style guys.
     
  25. Emmdotfrisk

    Emmdotfrisk Working half days on my days off.

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    I like what you got goin on Win, but let's not forget about teams like the Jets or Jags who run 3-4 and 4-3 equally. Having specific modifiers for starters may get us into trouble. Maybe it would be easier for us to limit modifiers by position of importance. For example we could take a look at average salaries by specific positon. It may look something like this..

    1. QB
    2. RE
    3. LE
    4. C
    5. DT
    6. CB
    7. MLB
    8. LT
    9. RB
    10. WR

    and ect.

    ** Each position could have a specific modifier (we could double up modifiers too, meaning two positions could have the same modifier) which will affect the base salary (which is determined by OVR).
     

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