Cheese or not cheese?

Discussion in 'Thread Archive' started by Abominatrix, Aug 16, 2011.

  1. Abominatrix

    Abominatrix Walk On

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    So, Clemson and Virginia had another game go down to the wire tonight, ending on a last minute drive and field goal. Money thinks I cheesed, and I just wanted to post the videos in question so that everyone can see them. Both of these runs were part of the final drive.

    First playcall: 4WR, balanced (2WR on each side), all slants


    Second playcall: 4WR, balanced, slot outs


    If everyone (or Alfa alone) thinks I cheesed, then I'll gladly apologize and you can throw the game out and give Clemson a sim win. I just really don't like being called a cheeser, especially by someone who runs this sort of offense:


    Feel free to compare our pocket presences. I'm sure shotgun doesn't need a 10 yard dropback, and I had to deal with this type of passing game that completely negated my pass rush over and over again:


    I can deal with the excessive dropbacks. I can deal with repeated power plays, sweeps, and tosses out of 0-1WR formations as a running game. I can deal with wide scrambling arcs from excessive dropbacks. I can't deal with people calling me a cheeser when I scramble twice with a pocket passing QB, and not being able to handle the situation in a civilized manner. Pocket passers are a very small threat running the ball, and I got excellent yardage on these plays - a testament to how senseless it would be for me to do anything else.

    In closing, I'm getting tired of having to defend myself for every close game I win against Money. I've been called a cheeser for running 4 verts 3 times when he ran it twice in the same game, and I've been called cheeser for stepping up in the pocket and running into 20 yards of open field. He always has some choice words for me, as well. All while he drops back that far most of his passing plays, and spams 1WR outside runs the other half of the time. I'm tired of him burning me at the stake whenever I win, while I suffer in silence watching some of his plays.

    Again, if everyone thinks I'm a cheeser, I'll gladly accept a sim loss, and you can even kick me out of the OD, if necessary. I just want everyone to know what's going on so we can all figure this out. It's clear that Money and I have a difference of opinion on what cheese is, and I welcome any and all comments.
     
  2. makinpropel

    makinpropel Go Big Red!

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    First off, Jared:
    [​IMG]
    Lol, just kidding.

    Those two plays are not only fine with me, but I would expect someone to do that. Huge lanes there, a college quarterback would take that and run for it.

    Jared's first one I'm okay with as well, but the 2nd one a little suspect. He just got nervous, and went backwards. He was probably trying to throw it away when you sacked him.
     
  3. DC

    DC Shake n Bake

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    Browsing the forums AT work thought I'd throw my opinion In. From my experience the courtesy rules is ...if no wr are open, or you are pressured you may scramble. On both those plays, your wrs hadn't finished their initial routes...from looking at it none of them would have been open, but another second of standing there would have been no question to scramble.


    The other guys drops are WAY WAY to far back. I used to do this when I was nervous. I had to train my self to let go of the the stick. That may be the case, but that is an absolute no-no.

    In conclusion, let your wr finish routes unless pressured. Other guy, stop holding down that thumbstick...no qb drops that far back.


    Thought u would like an objective point of view
     
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  4. Michael Woodward

    Michael Woodward Walk On

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    In my opinion (which is the only one that matters since I am the commish), Garrett, your first play was completely understandable. Yes, you had a receiver getting open right as you crossed the line but it definitely didn't appear that way when you took off. I probably would have done the exact same thing. The second one, I think was a little preemptive. Your guys hadn't even cut and you were already taking off. A lot of people start to run with QBs when the game is on the line at the end of games. However, with only one questionable run in the whole game, its not a big deal. It's not like you were scrambling every play. Do watch that you don't scramble quite so quickly though.

    Jared, your QB is dropping waaaaayyyy too far back. In the second video, when you start turning around and scrambling backwards, that is a HUGE no no. Cam was talking to me on chat when you played him and he said during the game you were doing that and he was getting pretty pissed off. I hadn't heard about it other than that so I wasn't too worried but since you're doing it again, I'm going to have to warn you about that. You need to practice a normal drop back. In shot gun, you shouldn't need anymore than 3 steps. You took like 10.

    Also, you need to learn how to take a loss. You lose against Derek and get all anti-semitic. You lose to Abom and say he cheesed because he ran 4 verts and it's a money play.....4 verts is pretty damn simple to stop #1, #2 you run money plays all game. You run maybe 10 plays a game and they're all plays that are hard to stop. However, once those plays are figured out, you lose......Which, when you play people who are smart like Abom and me, we figure them out....which is why I beat you with no QB and he beats you pretty much every time.

    It's just a video game. If you lose, it's not the end of the world. I understand how a game can be frustrating....Trust me....I cuss at the TV constantly. However, I don't cuss at my opponent because that takes the fun out of the game for everyone. That's also a big no no on TSO. So, in summary, you better learn how to take a loss or I won't have a choice but to replace you. I don't want to do that because you've been in my dynasty for years and I know you love the dynasty, are devoted, and I consider you my friend. But, if I'm going to constantly have to deal with you calling people names and accusing people of things as a scapegoat for you just plainly not being the best at this game, I won't have a choice. Spend more time practicing and less time complaining and you'll win a lot more games. I see Abom on everyday in practice mode. There is a reason he's undefeated. Meanwhile, you join a dynasty and lose 2 games and quit because it's 'too hard.' Well, if you can win with a tiny team, you can win with Clemson. It's things like that that make you a better player. Instead of taking the time and frustration it takes to be a better player (like practicing constantly like Abom or toughing it out like me with Western KY, Wyoming, KU, Army, Hawaii, etc etc etc), you just want to automatically win or bring everyone down with you if you don't. Come on man, you're getting older. Act like it.
     
  5. Abominatrix

    Abominatrix Walk On

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    Just to be clear, I probably should be 1-2 against Clemson. ACCCG, I had a long INT return for a touchdown, and this game, I had a KO return for a touchdown. Both games were won by less than 5 points. Outside of those big plays, I haven't done much against them offensively. Big swing plays are the only reason I win a lot of the time.

    I don't want this topic to become a finger-pointing match, I just want people to comment on what they think is cheesy in both of our games, so that we can make the adjustments. I'll make sure to stay in the pocket longer, because my nervous habit is scrambling up the middle, so that I only get a short sack/short gain. We actually played this same game 3 times, but the first two times, our connection dropped late in the 3rd. He probably had 11 sacks in the first 6 quarters, so I didn't want to stick around too long. Need some OL help badly.
     
  6. QBKILLAR

    QBKILLAR If you only win one, please let it be Ole Miss.

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    All right guys I'm gonna have to side with Abom on this one. Passing is tough on this game and if someone wants to only rush 3 and not spy the QB then any QB in the nation would take off for an easy 1st down. I've asked Alpha on this exact same thing and I'm recruiting another scrambling QB because it keeps a defense "honest". When I played Derek last year I had him on a third and about 5 needing a big stop so I came out in a Dime D. He scrambled for a 1st and I was pissed but I was pissed at myself for not accounting for the QB. Just my opinion.

    But Abom I do still remember the one time I played you in 10 I won (dont think I could beat you in 12 this is just a comparison) playing a zone D. Then on the EA board when myself and Hawk were haveing a disagreement you pretty much called me a cheeser for only rushing the 2 "stud" dt's I had so it does kind of sting to get called or implied that you cheese so I understand your pain.
     
  7. pnc

    pnc Walk On

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    I would say cheese but it looks like im the only one. In reference to this site(tso) the rule is you only run your QB when your pressured out of the pocket. There was no pressure on either of the plays. For our dynasty we dont have a rule against running QBs so it looks like its a fair play.
     
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  8. moneyliesey

    moneyliesey Walk On

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    First of all, I called Ddru a jew two years ago when I was 14 years old. I've dropped it, Ddru brings it up only as a joke, it's done with. The only reason I complain about these money plays that Abom runs, is because we're always literally neck and neck with one drive left, which seems to always be his, and he runs the same thing over and over again.
    Second of all, I didn't quit that small teams dyn. I have a lot of stuff I have to do, and that small teams dyn wasn't on the top of my priorities. I have a job, football, school crap since I'm in college classes, and my brother has been in the hospital. I'm sorry that I couldn't keep up with that, if you noticed I did play the last 3 games before you retired the dynasty or kicked me, whichever one.

    I've been working on my getting mad when I lose in this game. It's the close ones where I feel like I may have gotten slightly jipped out of that I get a little hot headed about. I know I need to work on my dropping back, I think I only do it on big 3rd downs and on big drives where I can't give up a sack, so I'm trying to work on that a lot.

    I told Abom it was fine, I told him I was just angry and the forums were unnecessary because I knew I was wrong.
     
  9. Abominatrix

    Abominatrix Walk On

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    Yea, I remember that well :(. I believe you were dropping 9 and user-owning my interior linemen, and I was abandoning the run like a true pro, so I couldn't find a passing play that could beat it (dur). I apologize for anything I said back then, because I was probably wrong. I used to be a real stubborn passer (ask ddrou about my 6-pick performance in our national championship, Cal-OSU), and dropping 9 would really grind my gears. And own me in the face. Still does, sometimes o_O
     
  10. pnc

    pnc Walk On

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    Actually I double checked the first page to make sure. The "League Rules Video Courtesy of Cream of the Crop" were posted on our site as valid rules, so it does fall under the definition of bad qb scramble(look 50 seconds into the video) as he took off with his QB without being pressured. Money was right this is, by definition of the rule, a cheese play.
     
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  11. moneyliesey

    moneyliesey Walk On

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    This was literally my only argument. He didn't drop back so it wasn't horrible, but I thought the fact there was no pressure on the last critical drive of the game it was kinda cheap because on the replays I even saw a guy or two which looked like the would be open in another half of a second. Mine are very bad, I'm sorry. I will work on it cuz I don't want to be out of this dynasty at all.
     
  12. Abominatrix

    Abominatrix Walk On

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    I'm looking at it right now, and Nesbitt is sprinting outside of the tackles during the bad QB scramble. He makes an effort to scramble inside the tackles on the good QB scramble. The second one was bad, we all agree, but a defensive tackle falling at my heels feels like pressure to me (and my controller). Heck, my QB scrambling ended up being the worse play, because my left-to-right slants ended up getting open near the sideline. Also:

    O.6.0- QB Scrambling: Unrealistic QB scrambling/sprinting is frowned upon on pass plays, including screens. Constantly dancing from sideline to sideline, running straight backwards or well behind the line of scrimmage without being under pressure is not realistic. This does not include option plays, designed QB runs or broken/pressured play situations.

    O.7.0- QB Dropback: Purposefully dropping too far back in the pocket during regular passing plays is not allowed. Defensive AI doesn't take into account how far back in the pocket the QB is, allowing for wide open out routes and passes into the flats. This includes hitting a WR on said routes on screen plays.

    Please point out to me where I broke these written rules.
     
  13. pnc

    pnc Walk On

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    i didnt see the excessive 10+ yard dropbacks the first time through the videos but this is also against the rules. I havent seen someone do them in a while. I think since the commish wants us to follow these rules, that we need to rewatch the video. Im not trying to step on the commish or anyones toes, this is just my opinion.
     
  14. QBKILLAR

    QBKILLAR If you only win one, please let it be Ole Miss.

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    Define Pressure? Are we suppose to stay in the pocket until sacked? If a guy drops 8 and you have 20 yards of open grass in front of you name one QB (hell P. Manning would take off running) that would just sit in the pocket. I ran my QB on you a couple three times if I'm not mistaken PNC. Next thing I know their is a LB playing spy on me..... and I couldnt run so it wasnt hard to stop. Cheese IMO is running a unstoppable play time and time again taking advantage of the AI with something that you know will work. AKA money plays. If a guy comes out in a dime and backs off coverage is it cheese to audible to a run to or is it football. Bet your sweet ass this year when Ms. State is playing Auburn (or any other team) if they drop 8 into coveage Relf wont wait for a second to run... just my thoughts.
     
  15. pnc

    pnc Walk On

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    In my opinion, you dropped back in the pocket and then took off running. I didnt see pressure on either video. In the first a defender got knocked down to your side but he wasnt that close to you, and on the other one there was no one near you.
     
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  16. pnc

    pnc Walk On

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    Pressure is defined bad having to leave the pocket to avoid being sacked. In both videos he was in no danger of being sacked. Yes there is ways to stop a running QB, but im defending the commish. he posted the rules, so he obviously wants everyone to follow them.
     
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  17. Abominatrix

    Abominatrix Walk On

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    And this is good. The entire point of this topic was for both of us to figure out what people think is questionable about our respective games. I've already said I'll stick around in the pocket a little longer. That's just something I need to work on. I'm not here to throw crap at each other.

    KO return
    HB screen, right side
    Slants (highlighted 1st scramble)
    Circle (Quick out to the left side, Smith)
    Slot Outs (highlighted 2nd scramble)
    Run the ball x3
    FG
     
  18. QBKILLAR

    QBKILLAR If you only win one, please let it be Ole Miss.

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    A dynasty devided??? :eek: Looks like we are about 50/50 on this one Alpha... which way you gonna go? I just switched starting QB's for my team to allow for scrambles. But I have both types.

    My only question is............. If it can be stopped with play calling is it really "cheese"? And if so can we please disallow the screen pass? WSU burned me on that more than once in our game because of poor playcalling on my part!:mad:
     
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  19. QBKILLAR

    QBKILLAR If you only win one, please let it be Ole Miss.

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  20. pnc

    pnc Walk On

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    the problem is it helps but it doesnt stop it. poor choice of words on my part. Maybe someone with more experience can help, but if there is a rule to stop the running qb, there has to be a legit reason. In my experience screens only work when there is multiple blitzes. thats not considered cheese, thats just guessing on the right defense. I suck at throwing screens so I dont try them.
     
  21. Abominatrix

    Abominatrix Walk On

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    Dude, the dynasty isn't divided, we're just discussing questionable plays :p.

    My idea of cheese is calling plays with the malicious intent to exploit them for yards. I called slants and saw them all covered as soon as they broke, and didn't want to wait for them to cross each other before taking off underneath. I didn't call slants in order to scramble up the middle, because that's counter-intuitive. It was just there. On the slot outs play, I saw cover 2 over the top, which takes away the streaks, and nervously ran up the middle after making that read. I still had around 1 minute to complete the drive, and had 2 timeouts. If people think I called slot outs in order to scramble up the middle, then people think I cheesed. Either you trust me, or you don't. There's no way to monitor intent.

    Same story with the dropbacks. I'm not calling Money a cheeser because he dropped back 10 yards, because I attribute it to nervousness. Could I claim that he dropped back specifically to negate my pass rush? Sure. But I hold members of this dynasty to a higher standard than that. I don't expect people to run plays just because they're hard for the AI to cover. And we both have admitted that our plays were bad, and that we'll work on fixing them. I hope you all expect the same standard from me, because I don't ever do that anymore. I don't even have a 4-verts play in my playbook because of last year's problem.
     
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  22. QBKILLAR

    QBKILLAR If you only win one, please let it be Ole Miss.

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    I was joking in my last post. You guys will get this worked out and I will follow along to see that the rules say and I will follow them. I enjoy playing all you guys and I get really pissed when I lose and I havent won a user game in this dynasty yet so I been angry alot. haha. Look forward to playing you guys.
     
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  23. Abominatrix

    Abominatrix Walk On

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    Scenario: You have 20 seconds left in the game, down by 2. You're on the opponents 40 yard line with 1 timeout left. Your kicker can nail a 50 yard FG, but attempting one now would be 55 yards. Defense calls a 9-man zone, and hot routes the 2 rushers to zone coverage, as well. Literally 11 people drop back into coverage, so no one is open initially. There are 0 rushers. Can you scramble? :O
     
  24. pnc

    pnc Walk On

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    yes you can scramble, but based on the rules of our dynasty, only if youre under pressure. Id have to think that dropping 11 players(never saw that) into coverage would also be against the rules. I have never saw that in a real game. My thing is I play against users the way I want them to play against me.
     
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  25. Abominatrix

    Abominatrix Walk On

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    PNC, where exactly is the rule about only scrambling when under pressure again? I'm trying to locate the rules that I may have broken, and you mentioned that I can only scramble "if I'm under pressure". I looked through the rules of the Cream of the Crop dynasty, and only found this:

    QB Scrambling: Unrealistic QB scrambling/sprinting is frowned upon on pass plays, including screens. Constantly dancing from sideline to sideline, running straight backwards, deep dropbacks, constantly throwing off your back foot while dropping back, or well behind the line of scrimmage without being under pressure is not realistic. This does not include option plays, designed QB runs or broken/pressured play situations. If you are going to scramble w/the QB when no one is open, try to stay inside your tackles or close. Especially if you dont have pressure off the edge, or have a clean pocket.

    From what I'm reading, it mentions the specific "Constantly dancing from sideline to sideline, running straight backwards, deep dropbacks, constantly throwing off your back foot while dropping back, or well behind the line of scrimmage" without pressure as illegal, but I didn't do any of these things.

    EDIT: We should probably have a vote or something to draft a new rule if people don't like what I did. I just can't find the exact clause that I violated anywhere.
     

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