Curious Thoughts

Discussion in 'The Deuce' started by GoGators, Dec 10, 2010.

  1. GoGators

    GoGators GT: KSherm

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    My game last night got me thinking about how the LB's leaping like super man reminded me of NCAA 03/04. It comes to mind because it's the only time I ever broke a gaming system out of frustration. While playing a dynasty game, I had 2 balls picked off on passes intended for guys 15 yards or more beyond the LBs and I'd had enough. I threw my controller at the xbox. Fortunately didn't break at first. Unforutunately I hadn't gotten rid of all my frustrations so I threw the controller at the thing again. That time it broke for good. Thankfully it was still under warranty at game stop :)

    This brings me to my question.

    Do you guys think the AI of this game has changed as much as you would of expected it to change in the last decade?

    I know the game has gotten better looking graphically, and they've added much larger playbooks and more options like hot routes and audibles, but has the AI ever really changed? I don't really think it has. Maybe I'm wrong and you guys can point this out so I'd like to hear your thoughts.
     
  2. Jmustang1968

    Jmustang1968 Walk On

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    DB coverage still looks horrendous. Sometimes they cover it right, but other times they are running around the receiver stupidly. I understand if the corners are bad, but the way they act isn't realistic.

    AI playcalling is still shitty. Oh what, 3rd and 8 down by 20, lets run the triple option for the 6th time and still get stuffed in the backfield.

    They also lack situational awareness. 3rd and 12, 2 min left, down by 7. Lets throw it 2 yards over the middle to the TE. Or I hate how they will call a timeout or hurry up, only to then kind of give up and run a dive play... makes no sense.
     
  3. jkhaalis991

    jkhaalis991 Back in The Deuce...been gone too long.

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    Superhuman LBs are a killer in this game & has been since forever.
     
  4. Shaun Mason

    Shaun Mason Somebody you used to know.

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    I honest to God would love to work on the team that does AI for NCAA and Madden.

    It is my dream job.
     
  5. GoGators

    GoGators GT: KSherm

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    Maybe you can explain this to me. Is it possible to compare the AI from this video game to the AI from say chessmaster? In chessmaster it's all based on mathematical probability of success. To increase difficulty, the game simply takes more times to calculate it's possible moves. I have no idea how NCAA determines what it's about to do. You seen the highlight of the QB throwing a backwards screen pass that I posted in the experience thread. If the game was using math, it would of known to run for 30 yards with the QB rather than throw a backwards screen pass that resulted in a fumble and me scooping and scoring.

    My one wish for video games is that some day I get to play a quality football game on the digital grid iron. And considering the development that has taken place in the past decade, it's likely that in the next ten years, I'll have a great 3d experience where it'll look like I'm in the game but I'll still see all the same old shit I've been seeing as bugs in this game for the past decade. Agreed?
     
  6. Shaun Mason

    Shaun Mason Somebody you used to know.

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    I'll be honest when I say I have no idea how they are implementing decision making.

    What you are talking about in Chessmaster is decision tree. The more time you have to evaluate, the more branches of the decision tree you can evaluate, finding a better move if you have more time. I'm not sure if they use that method, or another in this game.

    There is more than enough horsepower to evaluate moves for 22 people at once. I think it is more that the developers are really not THAT knowledgeable about football (neither am I, but more than average I would assume). If you could get position coaches in to explain WHY techniques are used and they could relate the effectiveness of technique and decision making to attributes it would get better in my opinion.
     
  7. Drifterbub

    Drifterbub Help me hide a body?

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    Bingo. I think EA is a big enough company to have the talent necessary within their workforce to get it done. They just need proper guidance and insight. Most of the guys went to college, so I'm sure they at least know what football is. Unfortunately, we all know that most people we went to college with don't know jack shit about the finer aspects of football.

    I've said it before, I don't think you can achieve a sim football game unless everything is in helmet cam...
     
  8. Shaun Mason

    Shaun Mason Somebody you used to know.

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    I would prefer a helmet cam, but what do I know.
     
  9. GoGators

    GoGators GT: KSherm

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    The problem with the helmet cam is that you're still playing a 2D game. There's no depth perception. Until 3d TVs become household items then it really won't work. You have to have some elevation above the playing field to achieve depth otherwise, it'd be like trying to play with one eye closed. Go outside and try that sometime :)

    I read before that EA doesn't actually use football consultants or anything like that. It's all done in house. The thing I read was for last years game in regards to the option playbooks. They said they never had someone come in and explain the playbooks rather they just watched gametape and went about it themselves. It's kind of crazy to me to think that's the research the put into this game. A couple of stoners probably sitting around watching gametape on a DVR eatting cheetos haha.

    With all the clinics and seminars that college coaches and programs put on, it wouldn't take much to go to these and get some real insight if they didn't want to hire a consultant. Also, look on youtube and google, there's tons of videos from breakdowns of the Air Raid to Bill Walsh speaking his west coast gospel. All the info is out there, they just need to use it.
     
  10. Shaun Mason

    Shaun Mason Somebody you used to know.

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    Like I said, I would be perfect for the job. It would be awesome to try to translate the inverse veer that Auburn has been running with Cam Newton to AI.
     
  11. theSANDMAN215

    theSANDMAN215 Hokie, Hokie, Hokie, HI

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    Wasn't there a game a while back that you actually played through the vision of the helmet as the QB?
     
  12. Shaun Mason

    Shaun Mason Somebody you used to know.

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  13. GoGators

    GoGators GT: KSherm

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    That's why I love this guy! W/o doing research he knew Auburn's bread and butter play was the inverse veer.

    They have it, you can modify the spread wildcat formations. Pick the fake jet sweep QB dive, and then just make the read. You can give it to the HB if the DE crashes. Unfortunately, the AI and the blocking scheme blows so it doesn't work like it should.

    I'd love to see some real defensive assignments and WR option routes that actually work. If an OLB knew he was responsible for contain in a cover 3, then the toss sweeps probably wouldn't be as effective as they are.

    Another big one. The offensive line splits have been the same since this game was created. Can someone tell EA that the spread teams have 2-3 foot splits as opposed to the traditional 1 foot splits you see in pro style offenses. Think that'd be an easy one to implement.
     
  14. theSANDMAN215

    theSANDMAN215 Hokie, Hokie, Hokie, HI

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    I'm pretty sure 90% of the plays are the same in the last 3-5 years in this game.

    The defense, I bet closer to 97 - 98% of the plays are the same.

    I just don't see how the game improves that much every year. I would be fine if they just updated the game every two years, and give us a roster update every year. That way, they would have close to two years to work on a game.
     
  15. theSANDMAN215

    theSANDMAN215 Hokie, Hokie, Hokie, HI

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    I don't know all the logistics and money side, but if you are EA Sports, why spend more money than you have to if you have the only NCAA game on the market and it constantly sells well? That's the worst part, in my opinion, they have a monopoly.
     
  16. Jmustang1968

    Jmustang1968 Walk On

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    This is brought up a lot, but I think they work hard and put forth a good product. The biggest limiting factor is time. No other game is as complex as these and still on a yearly release cycle.
     
  17. bringbackjimmy

    bringbackjimmy WTFWTTD

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    I joined this league in 09 thinking I was going to get to play games with some new guys and get a low budget version of the offline dynasty. I never thought that they would go from not having it to the best addition a game has ever had. To people that thought ea sits back because of liceses are crazy.

    There biggest flaw is not having the football guys and having flawed rating and mechanics.

    1.Passing the ball is bogus as you have a high lob or a bullet that goes in a straight line. Not many if any qb can throw spass 45 50 yards with about the same elevation you would throw a quick slant. Maybe they could add a throwing meter like a kick meter where you select the elevation( picture the old madden kick bar where you choose power up a d accuracy horizontal). You drop back press the wr button and let go at your preferred elevation.

    2.rating mean squat. Default sliders should give you a great game. A corner with 95mc should be hard to beat, but since it doesn't we have to have sliders that make almost every decent cb play like revis.

    3. They talk year I and yr out about playbooks but they never really seem to change. The no huddle offense are a nice Idea but with their crappy play calling and formations shifts make it stupid. When they are not being stupid they are being very cheesy..

    It seems like 1 thing a yr gets better. 09 all you did was try to nab fast guys no matter what their other ratings were now you can't do that. 10 they fixed it a little but the recruiting was still way to easy.
    Now speed isn't a issue and recruiting while sometime stupid and flawed is alot harder and if you don't watch out your fucked..maybe next yr teams won't over recruit positions( gt had like 14 wr last yr running a pure option offense) they don't need. Yeah it's cool the cpu are nabbing 5 stars but do they need to be the same position?
     
  18. Hellisan

    Hellisan Schemin 'em up

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    Sorry for butting in.

    I think a lot of the coverage issues and stuff like that simply stem from the vantage point the user has over the game. If linebackers can't cover an inordinate amount of space, how will they ever stop you? A real QB is limited by his actual height; we're perched 30 feet above the field and there's absolutely no way for the defense to really "trick" us visually insomuch as how they line up etc. Once the play starts, if our reads are bad then we can make a mistake. But without the superhuman coverage, and WITH that view... It would be childs play - an absolute joke of a game.

    This isn't to say they can't do better. But I think we will always see some superhuman activities going on, as long as we have superhuman powers of field visibility.
     
  19. GoGators

    GoGators GT: KSherm

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    Those are good points Helli, but then why not drop the camera angle to 10-15 feet? You'd still have the depth perception needed to play and it'd be more realistic. I'd like to see that and I'd like to see defensive camera angles. It would make the game more challenging.

    Some of my biggest gripes are the lack of football knowledge:
    [rant]
    1. Watch your safeties in zone coverage. The rule of thumb is to be as deep as the deepest guy on the field. If the offense runs all 5 yard hitches, your safeties will continue to backpedal until the ball is thrown. They could be 40 yards from the nearest WR. It's stupid.

    2. Defensive alignment. If I call cover 2 and the goalline calls goalline, why do my CBs stay 10 yards outside the widest offensive player? So basically I'm left playing 9 vs 11 since two of my guys are in no mans land.

    3. They CBs running the WR route before he does. That this is still an issue is beyond me. Peterson is a 90+ WR with 99 route running skills. I tried to run an out route against a 70s CB with 70s man coverage and the DB ran the route before Peterson did. So wtf does route running actually do?

    4. I can't stand the pursuit angles programming. The best example are punt returns. Why in the world does the punt coverage team run down the middle of the field like a big blob? It's so unrealistic. Same thing happens with defenses. The defenders take these angles that result in no ability to cut back. Also, if you get into the open field and try to juke a guy, even if successful, you're likely to get run down from behind by the pursuit. This shouldn't happen. And to me, this is one way they could improve the fun factor of these games 100%. Getting your guy out on the open field and going Barry Sanders on some LB is one of the most rewarding things in these games. Yet you can't do it cause the time it takes to get in and out of a juke is more than enough time for a superhuman DT to run you down from 20 yards away.

    5. And this one continues to piss me off. They way the offense (especially from the shotgun) gets stuck in their running play animations for so long that the defense can loop around guys and get in the backfield before the HB gets the ball.

    6. Why are the lineman still programmed to be a win loss based on a coin flip? A good DE will throw your tackle aside in a split second like a rag doll if the game decides he should win the battle. It takes no account of the physics that would require the DE to at least run around the T as he tried to prevent him from getting to the QB creating a space for the QB to step up and avoid the pass rush. Instead the DE morphs around the T taking him out of the picture giving him a perfect pursuit angle to the QB with no where for the QB to go. [/rant]
     
  20. Hellisan

    Hellisan Schemin 'em up

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    Yeah it's just ... ranting does no good. Same as throwing your controller. (Nobody broke more PS2 controllers than me. But when I went to remotes that could like, fly and break things other than just the controller and were 39.99 a pop, I finally stopped throwing them.
     
  21. GoGators

    GoGators GT: KSherm

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    Poll Logic

    Wisconsin is currently 1-3, but still ranked in the top 25.
     
  22. KnightNoles

    KnightNoles Learn to Compete

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    @GoGators

    Do you always bitch about something?

    Please don't make NCAA next year, maybe he will enjoy the game more
     
  23. Shaun Mason

    Shaun Mason Somebody you used to know.

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    Everyone has a thing, bitching is his, much like you acting like a bad white rapper is yours.
     
  24. KnightNoles

    KnightNoles Learn to Compete

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    I don't rap though...
     
  25. Shaun Mason

    Shaun Mason Somebody you used to know.

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    Neither do most "white rappers".
     

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