Game-play Rules

Discussion in 'TMFL' started by sibellius, Nov 15, 2010.

  1. sibellius

    sibellius Too legit to quit

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    Now seeing as the purpose of a sim-league is to keep the games as close to the real thing as possible, I think its worth looking at some of the in-game rules we have set. Over the last few years, we've seen a lot of NFL teams find success with unconventional strategies and I think our rules should evolve as well. Here are some changes I'd like to see...

    1) 4th down rules. Its now a regular occurrence in the NFL to see teams going for it as far as 4th and 5 regardless of the score to keep a good offense off the field or in the interest of keeping up a team's momentum. Obviously, this choice should still be limited to when you're no farther back than midfield but I think any other time/distance/score constraints should be removed.

    2) Hurry up offenses. The Colts run this to perfection and there is no reason a team here shouldn't be able to base an offense around it either.

    3) QB scrambling. Obviously, I have a vested interest in this with my pickup of JaMarcus Austin but it all goes back to simulating real games. Having a mobile QB like Vick, Mcnabb, and Tebow opens up a whole new dynamic for an offense. Defenses are forced to think on their feet and become proficient at running QB contains and spies. This rule essentially negates a QBs speed and agility ratings.

    Obviously, the goal here is to eliminate the cheesers and gimmick offenses that we see all too much online and teams would be monitored for abuse if these things were allowed. If something I listed here doesn't transfer over to Madden because of an AI exploit then thats understandable but if we are to call ourselves a sim league then some changes need to be made.
     
  2. kdpnutter

    kdpnutter Walk On

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    I see where you are saying with what is going on in the NFL, however this is not the NFL.

    If we open up QB scrambling too much, guys will be running all over the place with or without a contain and spy there is too much cheese plays to do to get through it.

    As for 4th down, I like our things, except the 4th and inches I'd like to see as being able to go for it on 4th and inches anywhere on the field.

    Hurry-up offense, once again something guys can abuse left and right, you come out in a two TE, two WR, 1 RB and run a no huddle and change to a 5 WR audible, obviously your players are more athletic than the defenders and just run that down the field and boom an easy TD. Audibling defensively into a more pass oriented defense will still have a large advantage over the defense.

    There is just too much cheese to open things up that much in my opinion especially QB scrambling and No huddle offense.

    I think we only need one small rule change, and that is 4th and inches to be allowed to go for it on 4th and inches from anywhere on field.

    I am absolutely against opening up QB scrambling and No-huddle offense.
     
  3. sibellius

    sibellius Too legit to quit

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    Keep in mind we would still required to mix up the play calling. Like I said above, these type of things would all be monitored for abuse. The threat of a mobile QB allows you to open up and create opportunities in your passing and run game that weren't there before.Someone who is going to run a no huddle and audible constantly into 5 WR sets or run the same two plays over and over isn't the type of player that we want in the TMFL and I wouldn't expect this to be a problem. You gotta have a little more faith in your fellow league members man....
     
  4. kdpnutter

    kdpnutter Walk On

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    Not a matter of faith in fellow league members or not, nothing against other members in the league it's a matter of past and present, I've seen it too many times with too many leagues.

    It's a matter of rules and having some set things. I stand by my statement of only rule to change is 4th down, to allow you to go for it on 4th and inches from anywhere on the field.

    I am absolutely against QB scrambling rules changing and same with no-huddle, we get the no-huddle usage enough. If we open up QB scrambling and no-huddle then I will probably have to bow out of the league. Watching some QB like Vick or Austin have 16 carries for 210 yards and 3 TDs is not what I'm looking for in a league. This isn't the NCAA it's the NFL.
     
  5. ChickenOfTheSea

    ChickenOfTheSea TMFL Goat Herder

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    Honestly, I would not mind seeing a little more QB mobility. But its such a Dangerous line to cross in a video game. maybe something like: you can run a max of 15 times with your QB but your Hb MUST be within 3 carries of him. otherwise you could see a QB rushing for 14 carries and a couple scores while the HB is never used. and that's unbalanced. one thing for sure. QB scrambling on all-pro is stupidly easy. Defensive players stand there and done react and every guy who runs his QB will bitch out and slide after getting big yards. Awful big can of worms to get into.

    4th and inches anywhere on the field is pretty sucky IMO. especially on all pro again. There are guys who would never punt. maybe 4ht and less than 1 from anywhere when you are behind or tied. But have to be past the 50 to go on 4th if you are ahead.

    Always good to talk about this stuff.
     
  6. sibellius

    sibellius Too legit to quit

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    I was under the impression that a sim league is based off the NFL. Take tonights MNF game for example...Vick ran for 80 yards on top of his ridiculous passing game. Tebow had two running TDs on Sunday. The QB run game being an NCAA-only thing is a thing of the past. I personally hate the no huddle offense but it can be defended against if you know what you're doing, same with QB scrambles. I think the other rules we have in place will prevent any kind of cheesing. If the CPU can't handle defending these offenses thats one thing, but don't be against the rule changes because you'd have to work a little harder on defense.
     
  7. ChickenOfTheSea

    ChickenOfTheSea TMFL Goat Herder

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    Additionally if you are going to allow QB mobility and 4th downs from anywhere on the field then amoeba Defenses have to be legal, that means motion blitzes, multi-manual movements. shift blitzes, full press all game. Its game on. this usually blows leagues up. All in the short term interest in a few owners who want to run Vick. Especially when your Mobile QB gets Koed for 6 weeks and your bullseye 53 speed backup is getting ass-mangled by gimmick defenses. Then guys start quitting.

    10 Qb rushes is a good amount.
     
  8. sibellius

    sibellius Too legit to quit

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    I'm 100% for something like this. I'm appealing for a rule change that will allow REALISTIC QB scrambling and if we did decide to do this then there would absolutely need to be guidelines like this along with it.
     
  9. rushers24

    rushers24 Walk On

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    I think the rules are fine the way they are. You can scramble if you are being pressured. It's not like you have to stay in the pocket the whole game. Hiking the ball and running around with Vick or whoever would just ruin the league. There's a big difference between hiking the ball and running around the defense because you see their in man, or theres a huge gap in the middle, and between dropping back and making your reads, and as the pressure comes you roll out, but abusing that would ruin the game also. You can't put a certain number on QB scrambles either. First it would be too easy to loose track of. In the heat of the game your not going to be counting how many times you ran with your QB, and it would just cause problems.

    As far as changing the 4th down rule for 4th and inches, I think that would ruin the league as well. This isn't the NFL, and it is very difficult to stop someone from converting on 4th and inches. The success rate is just too high for the this game. QB sneak, FB dive will convert on 4th and inches almost every time. You can't have people going for it on their 35 yard line in the 1st quarter on 4th and inches. That's something you would see in a lobby game online, not in this league.
     
  10. Keller

    Keller The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

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    First off, let me preface this by saying I like having a discussion about the rules. Its healthy for a league to talk about them and for members to argue about what they feel should be changed. I said it from the get go in the SMFL, this isn't my league, its our league. I want to try and involve everyone to help mold the league as we see fit. That said, I have my own view points on QB scrambling and 4th down situations.

    The rule in my interpretation is, you can scramble if you're under pressure or if you've gone through 3 or 4 reads and nothings there then you can take off. Snapping the ball and just holding down sprint to take off is 100% against the rules. I believe Denvers playbook has some designed QB runs that are 100% allowed because its not breaking any AI holes, so maybe you should take a look at those Sibellius. Obviously with a non-mobile qb, taking off after 4 reads isn't going to yield much yardage but with a mobile QB it could be a big play. In Madden, the preference should always be to throw first if you call a passing play. Even if your checking it down to your fullback for 2 or 3 yards, you called a pass play so throw it if its there. Granted you may not see him or something like that, but I don't want people to just snap the ball out of shotgun and just sit there for a second then take off running up the middle. Thats not sim gameplay.

    Unfortunately, this isn't the NFL and the players on the field don't react accordingly when a QB tucks the ball and takes off. If it were 3rd and 2 and I called Shotgun Hail Mary, if I took off running when I wanted to, I guarantee its a first down every time regardless of whether you're in zone or man or play QB spy or contain or whatever if I'm running with Vick. He simply breaks the game in my opinion. Is it wrong to want to utilize his legs? Hell no, everyone would want to but you've got to temper expectations about what you can do. The way I look at it, is you use your QB's mobility to get you out of trouble, not as a weapon. Does that make sense? In my opinion thats the only way it works within sim gameplay.

    As far as 4th downs, well, let me paint a picture for you. It's 3rd quarter, I'm up 14 points I'm the Colts your the Patriots in a 35-21 game. I get on your half of the 50 but still out of field goal range. Its 4th and 3. I pause the game and ask you if I can go for it, how do you feel? You know how I would feel if I were you? Totally hosed. I just stopped a high powered offense on 3rd down and now you're going to go for it? Ugh.

    Heres the argument the Colts owner says over the mic, "Dude, you have Tom Brady. I have Peyton Manning. I'm ready to put this game away now and go up 3 touchdowns. I want to keep Brady on the sideline as much as I can. This game is turning into a shootout and I just feel like this gives me the best chance to win."

    The Patriots guy says, "Dude, you're already up by TWO TOUCHDOWNS. ITS 4th and 3. WHAT THE FUCK!?"

    Can everyone see how frustrating that is? Rush hit it 100% on the head. 4th and inches situations are too slanted in the offenses favor to allow it every time anywhere. Think about it. Whens the last time you were stopped on 3rd or 4th and inches? I can tell you how it is for me and its probably 1/50 at best. Those are not the type of odds we encourage taking advantage of.
     
  11. sibellius

    sibellius Too legit to quit

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    I can see that a lot of this has to do with real life situations not transferring over well to Madden and thats completley understandable. I wouldn't want to win a game because my opponents CPU players were screwing them over. With the QB scrambles, my idea wasn't to try to turn this back into Madden 08 with Vick running all over the place and I hope nobody else would either. The existing rule seemed very limiting to the point where you were SOL if you had nobody open downfield. If as you said that we are in fact allowed to take off in these cases, those of us with mobile QBs will easily surpass the 10 yard maximum set in the rules. Like you said, this would obviously be only for those last resort situations and passing would be emphasized.

    A lot of guys rely on their offense to win them games and it shows in the stats (I'm often guilty of this too.) When you come up against great defensive players like Rush and Dre, 4th and short is never a guarantee. Thats at least from my experience but I understand where it could become a problem.

    Keller, you brought up a point I was also gonna address. Although I don't believe in playing aggressive when you have a big lead, I think it goes back more to your philosophy. We've seen examples of this with the Eagles, Broncos, and Raiders where coaches were criticized for doing just this. I think if you want to take the risk of hurting your starters then thats up to you. If I was getting blown out, I'd be even more humiliated when I saw my opponent putting their backups in and taking it easy on me.

    Just want to emphasize that I'm not trying to be combative here. If the rest of the league and/or Keller feels that these rule changes wouldn't work then I support your decision. It just seems that some of the rules are going a bit too far in trying to prevent cheesing and we need to give our players the benefit of the doubt that these type of things wouldn't be abused if we were given a little more leeway.
     
  12. Keller

    Keller The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

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    I dont think you're being combative at all Sibellius. Like I said, I think these types of discussions are healthy.

    I think you are misunderstanding the rule though. Its not a 10 yard maximum, its a 10 rush maximum. Again, I hope that no one really approaches that number, but its there nonetheless. Think about it, most QB rushes take place in key situations (i.e. 3rd and 8) and in my estimation, the success rate of a QB run when taking into account that they can also throw the ball, is probably 7/10. That is my honest assessment. With a QB who can throw on the move and run like Vick, I'm VERY confident in converting in those situations. Theres simply too much to account for, and I get it, thats the point. Again I have to go back to though, use your legs as a way out of trouble, not a weapon. So put yourself on the other side of the equation, assuming my 7/10 estimation is correct, do you really want to be giving up 70% of your 3rd downs because Vick is scrambling for 15 yards up the gut everytime you run vanilla zone or man?

    I don't think theres a right answer to this riddle, I really don't. Someone is going to be unhappy with QB rushing rules, one way or another.
     
  13. roll2tide

    roll2tide Walk On

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    4th Down-I am all for changing the rule some. I don't think 4th and anything inside the 50 is good but maybe 4th & 5 or less inside the 50 is OK.

    QB Scramble/No Huddle-The issue I have with opening offenses is that as a defender I am going to want to counter this by being able to move defenders manually and do multiple hot routes. If you come out in a 2 TE 2WR 1 HB set and I call my standard 3-4 defense and the you aud to 3(iffy that this is a big problem)/4/5 WR set then now I am at a huge disadvantage. Not only can the offense hot route all 5 of its players within 3-4 seconds but I'm also at an athletic and schematic disadvantage. I need time to go manually hot route my guys by switching to them and I probably am going to want to manually move them around as well because I need to create pressure and/or confusion to counter effectively. Too many players already use defenses like the 1-1-5 as a crutch as it is and that's almost what you'd need to do so that you could always match up. Madden simply does not give me the tools on defense that it gives you on offense. I think both of these are terrible ideas and will only lead to unsim play on both sides of the ball. Not to mention the arguments about what, exactly, is unsim and whether we are ultimately required follow the spirit of the rules or simply the letter of them.
     
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  14. Keller

    Keller The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

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    Well said Tide.
     
  15. roll2tide

    roll2tide Walk On

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    Another thing I would touch on and direct towards the OP(and reiterate something Keller touched on)--Expectations of the opponent. In the NFL if I'm up by 28 with 6 minutes to go and it's 4th and 2 and I go for it then you, as my opponent, have no choice but to eat it. And if I convert and go down and tack on another score? Tough. And if I offer you a big F You at midfield? Tough....tell your guys to man up. You don't see it often but you do see it in the NFL. Each and every coach/team is expected to win and there are no rules (not written, anyways) to govern whether or not you rub it in the other guys face. The losing coach doesn't have the option of quitting. He can't go complain to anyone and he has no recourse other than to rant to the media and he ends up looking like a pansy if he does.

    That's not true of us. We do have the option to quit and we we do have to "live with each other" and get along. Keller's point about how some people might feel in the 4th down situation is a good example. You may well have Manning, and you may well want to keep Brady on the bench, and you may well be well within your right (If the rule was changed) to go for it but your opponent started the game with the expectation of "fair and sim" play and if your going for it on 4th down with a 2 TD lead in the 4th (and possibly running no huddle, no less) then he is going to come away feeling cheated. That's how you lose good owners over really stupid stuff.

    True sim Madden, as compared to the NFL, are the league's that use tourney style rules which is to say they have virtually no rules. Anything goes and win at all costs. Complain to those guys when they hang 80 on you and they'll tell you to man up and get better on the sticks. Those guys start the game with the expectation that if they don't play well then they just might get 80 points hung on them.

    "Sim", as used in the gaming community, usually refers to fair play that involves an understanding of sportsmanship over winning. The rules are designed to promote as much parity as possible to ensure that even the losing coach might enjoy his experience so that the league survives and continues as deep into a franchise as possible. The NFL is about one over all others whereas community league's are about all over one.

    I think discussion is good and I credit the OP for putting this out there; I just don't happen to agree. ;)
     
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  16. ChickenOfTheSea

    ChickenOfTheSea TMFL Goat Herder

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    Nice post Roll. heck even in the NFL you have coaches who pull in their claws in say a division game where you have to play that team again in a few weeks to avoid embarrassing an opponent who might use that as motivation when you come visiting in a week or 2. Sadly Madden cannot replicate that human emotion and homefield advantage component.

    Last I couldn't agree more about the defense in Madden being at a disadvantage from the word go Especially on All pro.
     
  17. sibellius

    sibellius Too legit to quit

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    You guys make some good points. It seems that the game still has a long ways to go, especially on the defensive side. Keller-seems it was another misread rule on my part, thanks for the clarification. In regard to the psychology component that you were talking about roll, I see where you're coming from. It wouldn't be worth it to lose a good owner over something stupid like that. I can only speak for myself when I say that I wouldn't be bothered by my opponent still going full speed if the game was out of reach, but there are those out there that would take exception. I appreciate the well-thought out replies, thats why I'm happy to be a part of this league.
     
  18. Keller

    Keller The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

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    And we're glad to have you Sibellius. I think having a player like J. Austin still has its advantages - just don't be surprised if owners get perturbed by it. As long as you're not doing anything cheesy like taking off out of shotgun as soon as you have the ball in your hand, you'll probably be alright. Picking up a 3rd and 7 on the ground once you've gone through a few reads is not cheesy, its simply using what you have to make plays. Calling shotgun on 3rd and 3 and just sprinting straight forward tho will get you a swift kick in the nuts from me though :thumbsup:
     

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