Gruden's Rant - Cheez or Smart Football?

Discussion in 'TMFL' started by Gyrene76, Oct 5, 2012.

  1. Gyrene76

    Gyrene76 What does the fox say?

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    DISCLAIMER: This is absolutely in no way a response to a certain person or a remark. If you feel offended, it was purely coincidental. I would love for you all to weigh in!

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    Thirty-two users make up TMFL. That is thirty-two different personalities, tendencies, play styles, defensive aggression/conservative schemes, and especially, thirty-two different definitions of what one deems "cheez".

    The one thing that is apparent, everyone in TMFL is here for a reason. We have been selected as a group that the Shaun and others from the staff have deemed as worthy of being in this "premier" league. Furthermore, we wouldn't have joined TSO and made it this long if we weren't interested in "true, sim play." So I'm positive we have more in common than not.

    I do think something can happen to people that are in "sim" leagues. They can get to the point where they call anything that may be effective against them cheez. It is possible to be a "sim" player and be extremely good - those two are not diametrically opposed.

    With that said, of course there is cheez and "un-sim" play, but I assure you, if you need a reminder of those morons who exploit the game, then go play a ranked match of Madden or NCAA. You will quickly regain perspective, as you will soon run into this guy:


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    Here is a quick list of things that I have read labeled as cheez from various people on TSO.

    1. Slants
    2. Outs
    3. Curls
    4. Drags
    5. Corners
    6. Fly/Fade
    7. Power O
    8. Stretch
    9. Counter
    10. Toss
    11. Man to Man
    12. Man Press (so easy to burn)
    13. Man Blitz (again easy to burn - it's effectiveness is in it's surprise - mix it up)
    14. Throwing to HB or FB in backfield
    15. User Controlling certain defenders
    16. Motioning a TE to get a "heavier" strong side - (Gmen do it all the time)
    ______________________________________

    Now, it's obvious no one person thinks that everyone of these are cheez (well, I certainly hope not), but each person has an opinion of what they deem exploitation. If you took that list to the extreme, that would mean that a sim game plan would consists of only digs, posts, flat routes, dives, slams, and zone defense.
    When these become unsim is when a person runs a play over and over - of course that's unsim, but that's not what we are talking about.
    ______________________________________


    Football is a chess match. We know this. We have to make tough decisions every game based on the tendencies our opponent has shown.
    • Do we bring pressure, or drop back coverage on 3rd and 8? That answer depends.
    • Do we cover the curl route or the middle of the field? That answer depends.
    • Do we run on 3rd and 1, or pass out of shotgun? Again, that depends.
    Let's say it's 3rd and 8 and you come out in Cover 3 and they hit a curl route for a first down. Good for them! They exploited the weakness in your defense. What else should they do? Every defense has a weakness - every defense. Not to mention, you may eve call the the perfect play in that situation, but sometimes the CPU or the other user just makes a play. You may have blitzed all of your LB's on that 3rd and 1, but their HB just broke three tackles and scored a touchdown. That's football. Crap happens, as this video clearly shows.

    Defensive Weaknesses:

    Cover 2 - Vulnerable in the deep middle and the boundaries of the zone.
    • Route combinations include: Smash (hitch/corner combo) , Posts/Wheel, Posts, Seams
    Cover 3 -Short routes to the flats and curl routes
    • Route combinations include: Smash, Curl/Flats, All Go's
    Cover 4 - Flats, Zone floods

    Man/Man Press - Fades, Tight ends and receivers not on the LOS because they are unbumpable, Drags (mostly comes down to Press vs Release ratings).
    • Corners, Digs, Drags, Outs (mostly comes down to route running versus man to man ratings)
    If you opponent keeps going to the curl routes, then run a Cover 2 Man or hot route a hook zone to a buzz zone. Problem solved, but no matter what you do, there is always a weakness. If someone is beating you with slants, then man press and keep a hook zone in the middle. There are a finite number of guys on the field that can only cover a finite area on the field. In the NFL and NCAA, what is the most run route on 3rd down? It's not even close - slants.

    That's what made players like Randy Moss so good. He could burn a defender at any given moment for a touchdown - so the defensive coordinator always kept a safety over him. The moment the defense went to a no safety look, then the QB audibles to a fly pattern if he recognized it in time. It's football, not cheez.


    Football is entirely predicated on exploiting (in a good way) the defense. If you constantly come out in Cover 3, then I will continue to hit you on the sidelines with 'outs' , 'curls', and 'corners'. If you want to confuse me, then come out in a Cover 3 Buzz or something. It looks like man or cover 2, but its disguised. That's what good defensive coordinators do - disguise defenses.
    ______________________________________
    Some Obvious examples of Cheez:
    1. Running a pass play and immediately scrambling from the pocket
    2. Calling a dive and immediately bouncing outside without trying to hit the A gap
    3. Running the same play over and over
    4. Hot-routing every receiver you have every play (something is fishy)
    5. Taking a DE 10 yards left/right of offensive line to get unrealistic angle.
    6. Sending a WR in motion and snapping during the motion to get an illegal free release, or crappy AI animation.
    7. Going for it on unrealistic down and distance scenarios.
    8. Nano-blitzing (not to be confused with overload blitzes which are real) - simply slide protect
    9. Not giving your opponent time to get set after a motion or audible.
    10. Motioning your WR and hiking the ball on a dive when the wideout gets behind the line to get an extra blocker.
    11. Hurry up offense the entire game.
    ______________________________________

    Like I said, this isn't directed at anyone person, but just thought I'd share an opinion from a fellow league member. Every opponent I've played (@Gravity HovaTheGodMC, fuzzyl0gic (friendly), and AzureEffect have all been great opponents and just awesome dudes.
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    Last edited: Oct 5, 2012
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  2. Gyrene76

    Gyrene76 What does the fox say?

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    Just to be clear:

    Being a jerk and running up stats and score in the name of being "too good" or "it's how they play" are not acceptable excuses. Also, saying something is sim when in fact you are using that as an excuse to be a jerk, is also not acceptable.
     
  3. Cheez

    Cheez TSO's 1,000,000th Poster

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    Eh-hem.

    Please be careful where you are using my name. Thanks :)

    Gyrene76
     
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  4. Hova

    Hova Live Action. YiYiYi!

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    Curls, Outs, and Slants are not cheese. ABUSING them is. As far as I know no route is banned in the rule book because it is 100% unstoppable.
     
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  5. Keller

    Keller The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

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    For me the only routes that I really will get sick of seeing are slants, drags, hitches and HB Angle or TE Angle. Being prudent in the use of those is key. I could care less how many out routes or whatever else people run though admittedly "everything in moderation" is almost always the best policy.
     
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  6. Dru50

    Dru50 Still Chicago's #1 son

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    If someone is constantly showing blitz looks and/or bringing pressure I will run slants or curls to combat it, especially since my OL can't hold up long enough for me to look for longer developing routes. If guys don't like it I don't really care, if my opponent won't mix it up neither will I.
     
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  7. Hova

    Hova Live Action. YiYiYi!

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    If you know someone is running a slant then shade that direction and pick 6
     
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  8. Keller

    Keller The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

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    Shade the individual WR?
     
  9. Keller

    Keller The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

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    Nothing wrong with that attitude in my mind either. I've said that for awhile that if people are going to continually run the same things on defense they shouldn't be surprised if I run the same stuff over and over to keep beating it.

    Its a fine line though because if you get too used to running a hitch to beat cover 3 for example and you beat it a few times against a different coverage then the defender may cry foul and say "but i wasn't even running cover 3 most times" and blah blah.
     
  10. capp34

    capp34 Say Hello to the Bad Guy!

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    Not gonna lie I'm literally afraid to run outside the tackles I may run 2 outside runs a game from fear of being called a cheeser. There are also a few passing routes I have refused to run for the same reason. I try to be extra careful not to run some of things people frown upon but it's getting harder not to because those things are being used against me since they are easy to do. Not saying anyone is abusing me I just don't like to take the easy route and want things more difficult.
     
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  11. Gyrene76

    Gyrene76 What does the fox say?

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    Yeah, running the stretch play or Power O sometimes makes me nervous, lol. The most prevalent run in the NFL is the "off-tackle" run.

    As far as routes go, I literally thrown 0 slants, and I guess I need to start doing it. They apparently are pretty effective. I don't throw them because I think they are cheez, but simply not used them.
     
  12. capp34

    capp34 Say Hello to the Bad Guy!

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    I
    I am exactly the same way with slants I refuse to throw them even though I know I could get 2 easy first downs only throwing 2 a game.
     
  13. Shaun Mason

    Shaun Mason Somebody you used to know.

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    Good post Josh.

    I'll sum it up with my version of the golden rule: "Don't be a douche".
     
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  14. Shaun Mason

    Shaun Mason Somebody you used to know.

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    If you remove routes from your playbook that's your decision. There isn't anything anyone can do on offense that I can't stop. I'm not even that good. Hell, I user control the defensive tackle, so I'm not depending on "stick skills".

    You can ask anyone who has played me that despite having NO talent in Cleveland I generally make you work to score.
     
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  15. Dru50

    Dru50 Still Chicago's #1 son

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    "Slants are cheese" may be the most ridiculous thing I've ever read on TSO.....
     
  16. Shaun Mason

    Shaun Mason Somebody you used to know.

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    I started that I think. The issue is we had a guy who would run a slant every time he needed a first down, and in Madden of years past man coverage didn't shade at all.
     
  17. Gyrene76

    Gyrene76 What does the fox say?

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    Yeah, the shading helps a lot for slants!

    I just think be smart. On 3rd and 8 - don't give them an 8 yard cushion.

    And yeah, don't be a douche like you said.
     
  18. I Peench

    I Peench Caught in the hustle

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    I've removed them from my playcalling, but there's really no need this year. Much easier to defend.
     
  19. PAgamer07

    PAgamer07 We're the ship without a storm

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    Just mix up your play calling in all situations including clutch/3rd down.

    End of thread
     
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  20. Keller

    Keller The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

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    My ONLY issue with shading is that it requires a lot of time to execute at the LOS unless you're well versed in doing that. Being that I don't shade very often, it takes me awhile. I guess I need to practice it more. :shrug:
     
  21. antcap24

    antcap24 Walk On

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    I love this post because it does come down to a chess match. I feel all routes should be used to keep your opponent off balance. Throwing a slant, a screen, a fly are all "keep you honest" calls for me. I see that you are being over aggressive, I wil mix those calls in to make you think a little harder when you want to send the house or not leave a safety over the top. I throw other routes depending on other D tendacies.

    The games I have the most fun with is those that my opponent mixes up his D's so well that its a constant battle to know what he'll throw at me next, and having that chess match of sorts to guess his next move. I have been fortunate to have that type of rival competition over that past 3 years with fuzzyl0gic and capp34. Our battles is what makes this game fun for me. The fact that we know each other so well, and continue to have to go to the well each game to get more diverse makes our games that much more intense. I have had some great games with a lot of others in this league, but it is a different feel because of the history we have against each other.
     
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  22. Gyrene76

    Gyrene76 What does the fox say?

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    Great post Ant(hony?),

    That's how I feel too man. I really wasn't referring to this league, but the biggest pet peave of mine is when people call everything cheez, or what not. It is disrespectful to your opponent, because you are in effect diminishing their win. The leagues I play in are usually chalked full of great sim guys, so I truly never come across "cheez" anymore.

    Yet, I played an NCAA game online, and the guy I played literally ran the same route the entire first half and hurried up...it got old quick. That's why I'm thankful for this site.
     
  23. I Peench

    I Peench Caught in the hustle

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    The thread really should've ended with this
     
  24. Kasper

    Kasper The Ghost Himself

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    I've completely removed stretches from my PB after the earlier discussion we have had here in the league. I also try to avoid running Power O more than 3-5 times a game and try to keep it inside the tackle if I can.

    It kind of sucks that you have to be so wary of outside runs. I'm not trying to start a debate because we already had it in the gameplay thread, but it kind of sucks for teams that rely on teh running game for offense.
     
  25. Dru50

    Dru50 Still Chicago's #1 son

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    I'm at a point where I'm so sick of these discussions that in my mind just play how you want, since apparently anything that is called will be considered velveeta by someone in here. I'm not even going to look at stats anymore for anyone aside from my team, so knock yourself out when we play next week.
     

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