Health Care Reform

Discussion in 'The Cheap Seats' started by RynoAid, Sep 16, 2009.

  1. RynoAid

    RynoAid ..

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    Health Care Reform

    "The need to spend less money on the elderly at the end of life is the elephant in the room in the health-reform debate. Everyone sees it but no one wants to talk about it. At a more basic level, Americans are afraid not just of dying, but of talking and thinking about death. Until Americans learn to contemplate death as more than a scientific challenge to be overcome, our health-care system will remain unfixable."


    interesting perspective.... It seems like managing elderly care is taboo topic in politics. People fear the "death squad" label that gets thrown around. But seriously, at some point when people are old and dying, don't you just let it happen? What's the point of endless tests and trials when you know that you might only extend that persons life by 6 months etc, yet run up bills to insurance or medicare that's into the tens of thousands of dollars... sometime even more than that.
     
  2. Drifterbub

    Drifterbub Help me hide a body?

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    I've already decided that I don't want to live to where I'm old enough so that someone has to take care of me.

    I'll buy a corvette and ramp it off the grand canyon before I suffer through anything like that.

    But then again, I actually work for a living, have company insurance and am not dependent on the gov't to supply my basic needs (outside of municipality responsibilities), so healthcare reform doesn't really matter to me.
     
  3. Matrix Monkey

    Matrix Monkey Walk On

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    We really don't need political threads on this board. Leads to nothing but animosity.
     
  4. jfosh

    jfosh Super

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    I can respect the need to cut expneses Ryno but exteneding life another 6 months for tens of thousands of dollars seems like a good deal to me. Im sure that persons loved ones would say its worth it. The real cost savings comes with increasing personal responsibility, early prevention, and tort reform.

    Health care reform effects every person in the United States, so I would not brush it under the rug so quickly Drifter. You pay taxes every check for Medicare and Medicad (the current government run health care system) if a public option is added the money has gotta to come from some where. Guess who is going to pay it?

    Long term if there is a public option or non-profit co-op what we know about our current health care system could be a luxury. You will pay extra to make sure you have the options you want.

    Lets just make sure they get it right in Washington, for or against. I think it deserves a debate and should not be rammed through the Senate.
     
  5. Drifterbub

    Drifterbub Help me hide a body?

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    According to the bill(and it's supporters), the system would largely be paid for by the drug companies who stand to profit for the extreme increase in generic brand drug sales.

    I already pay way too much taxes for medicare/caid. And I'm for scrapping that largely corrupted and biased system. We could put drugs in vending machines for all I care, as long as we get rid of it. It's really sad growing up here in the south. My parents both worked over 50 hours a week to pay for our school lunches, taxes, healthcare, etc. Yet the kids with all the nice clothes, nice shoes and were dropped off in escalades all had free or reduced lunches and mostly free healthcare. The largest problem is only qualifying the people who actually need it. I have a few ideas, but it's too realist for most people's taste.

    Reform should have happened ten years ago. To what we move to is another question. How much does my opinion matter? In Texas, close to none.
     
  6. MaxATX34

    MaxATX34 Texas Football

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    I feel you on that.
     
  7. RynoAid

    RynoAid ..

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    [YOUTUBE]LSvRSobP34Y[/YOUTUBE]
     
  8. Juggernautblitz

    Juggernautblitz Carbon glutton

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    Let history be our guide. The government cannot run any program of substance without it eventually becoming a yolk around the necks of the productive members of American society. This one, if allowed to happen, will drag down our, and our childrens, and our grandchildrens economy and way of life for decades to come. Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, the Post Office, Congressional lunch counters, on and on, all running in the red and some of these could very well bankrupt our country eventually. Politicians make promises that they know will never be kept, that is what many of them do. That is what this BS of "it will pay for itself without adding anything to the deficit" is. If you are gullable enough to believe that despite decades of proof to the contrary then keep voting for the Barack Obama's of the world.

    Ryno - I am not a religious person (spiritual but not religious persay) but when a country turns its back totally on faith and turns to science and government for every answer, there are going to be consequences and that goes for end of life care, our schools and the lack of discipline in them, lack of work ethic, and I could go on for a while.
     
  9. Drifterbub

    Drifterbub Help me hide a body?

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    Current gov't healthcare has leeched itself onto our budget for decades with the current system, so what's the difference. We need to reform to eliminate corruption and provide better services for those who actually need it.

    I'm not gullable at all. In fact, I would label myself as pessimistic about most bills and plans issued by the gov't since I was old enough to care. I'm not for social medicine, but I am for completely trashing the old system and starting over. I'm also for heavy, scalable taxes for people that make more than 5 million a year from corporation employment, raising the abortion age limit to 80 years old and reforming state issued grade school testing to cease the growing epedimic of raising brain-dead morons in our society. I'm hopeful all these things happen soon.
     
  10. Archie Griffin

    Archie Griffin Walk On

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    First, let me say that, aside from a few right wing talking points, this discussion is being conducted at a much higher level than what we get in the news (though I'd like to sponsor a bill that would require all cable news networks to remove the title "news" from their names).

    I teach rhetoric for a living, and while I'll keep my nose out of the details of this particular argument, I would like to contribute this little tidbit:

    No one in any media outlet has yet provided an honest argument about this issue. The right is presenting its usual cornucopia of lies and hate-speech. The left is eating its own young again. That's American politics for ya.

    This is, first and foremost, a moral issue. Talking about economics is putting the cart way before the horse. Should we, or shouldn't we? That's the question here, and we're not talking about it. The reason we're not is because there's no discussion to be had. We know we should. Talking about money just gives us a way to excuse ourselves for choosing convenience over compassion.

    Who deserves and who does not? This is the question the politicians want us to ask, and it's bullshit, all of it. If you think you have an answer to that question, then you pretend to play God. You may want to tread lightly, because if you believe in any kind of judgment, believe that we will be judged (historically, spiritually, what have you) on how we value the lives of others, especially those we now so easily dismiss.
     
  11. Archie Griffin

    Archie Griffin Walk On

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    Couldn't be farther from the truth. "I actually work for a living" implies that those without healthcare are lazy. It's the kind of thing that O'Reilly, Rush, Coulter, and Blitz would say. This is just false, or is only true to the same extent as it is for the rest of the population. Also, if we don't get costs under control, your company will pull your coverage - all companies will.

    Plus, even with coverage, which gets worse every year, cancer will cost you your home, if you live. The list of what is covered gets smaller every year. If you can't pay, you'll die. It's just that simple.

    We're all one real illness away from bankruptcy, covered or not. Anyone who feels safe is fooling himself. That, or he's independently wealthy.
     
  12. Hova

    Hova Live Action. YiYiYi!

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    nice points archie
     
  13. GoGators

    GoGators GT: KSherm

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    Archie has a great point.

    Healthcare has become the new slave owner of the American people. If you ever wish to retire or do anything with your life besides work 40 hours a week, in the current system, it's highly unlikely you'll ever be able to afford it. Why? Simple, health care.

    Insurance has all of us trapped in some form or another. Those who have already been sick, can't change or get new coverage because no one will take them on. Therefore they are stuck paying whatever their provider decides to charge in premiums because they cannot change.

    Those who haven't been sick, can't afford taking the chance of living without health care. And those that are sick, have to constantly argue with their insurance providers about what is and isn't covered. And as Archie stated, cancer will make you lose your house.

    Health care has become a monopoly in this country, because there's no competition. You can only purchase health plans in your network. And the insurers will only insure people who don't need to be insured because their health profile indicates they are very unlikely to get sick.

    It's all a sham and a mockery.....A Shamockery!!!!
     
  14. Drifterbub

    Drifterbub Help me hide a body?

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    I hate all of those 'journalists' you listed. I can't stand to watch the news anymore, honestly.

    Archie, I'm sure the healthcare situation is a bit different in our respective neighborhoods (not implying about your upbringing, but rather in a geographical sense). Coming from someone who was raised in a low-income area by a low-income family, (20% of people from my hometown are said to be below the poverty line, and that is just of people who reported earnings to the IRA) the amount of abuse of the current system was outrageous. There are too many loopholes.

    Cancer could cost you your house. In fact, currently, I'm worth way more dead than I am alive. I have health insurance to cover the things that would cost me otherwise, like everyone else. I also have insurance on pre-cancer screenings. No one expects to develop cancer, and fortunately the percentage of people who actually have to deal with such a painful illness is somewhat small. This is why most insurance companies (including the proposed social system) focus heavily on screenings. Obviously it reduces the cost of treatment and, in most cases, greatly reduces your premium if you participate.

    I worked at the local walmart for 1.5 years while in high school and can tell you, the first Monday of each month was equivalent to the day after Thanksgiving sales. People came in drones, wielding books of coupons (WIC, etc) and their lonestar cards, ripping the grocery section to pieces. How many of these families deserved to have those privileges? It's hard to give an exact percentage, but I would say based I the people I knew, roughly 25-30% were medium-income families that could afford otherwise. McLennon County (group of small cities around the Waco area, including my hometown) led the nation for a long time for teen pregnancies and STDs. Families start on these programs at a young age and are never denied services once their need for support dissipates. Or they find a medium where they can work small cash jobs on the side (if that) and stay on gov't assistance for extended periods of time instead of doing better for themselves.

    So yeah. They are people who don't work, who can. It's not a myth contributed by right-sided zealots. I don't consider myself a republican, because I feel like I have far more libertarian ideals than conservative, so I'm not trying to stick my neck out for them. But, for me at least, it's hard to deny such overwhelming evidence of it's existence.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm all for helping people out, especially when mistakes are made or you can't do better for yourself otherwise. It's just that the current method isn't working. I like to think of it as the same sort of corruption that brought our lending markets crashing down. Too many payouts to people who can't afford premiums or had no business obtaining it in the first place.

    But then again, I'm just a pencil-pusher, so what do I know. :)

    Agreed. I think every person agrees that something has to be done, as there are too many people without coverage who need it and too many who are on it that can afford it otherwise. The real debate is how to do it financially when the dollar isn't as strong as it historically is, and the proper solution needs to be discussed. I'm not an accountant, but I know that there can't be restructuring on this scale without a huge lists of "what ifs."
     
  15. Archie Griffin

    Archie Griffin Walk On

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    I think Drifter is getting at the real argument here:

    In any situation, there will be trade-offs. Provide for all, and in comes abuse and fraud. It happens every time.

    Limit who we provide for, and people struggle, and often die, but the abuses are fewer.

    It's tough, because by doing right, we are forced to endure those who work the system, and watching these people (in my neighborhood, for example, everyone has a freakin' handicapped placard. I f-ing hate that.) is simply maddening. I would love to find a fair way to disperse benefits, but we're not there yet, I'd rather err on the side of life in the meantime.

    Now we're getting somewhere,

    AG
     
  16. jmillhimes

    jmillhimes Walk On

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    I would rather have more money in Social Security funds to help the elderly then to keep paying taxes so Easy E and Susan Smith can drop 4 kids out, not get married and recieve Welfare.

    I am 100% for helping others but there are way to many Loop holes. As one congressman once mentioned, " Wanna decrease Welfare, how about everyone on it must pass random drug tests."

    However, I always get the argument that dropping welfare will increase Crime by high double digits
     
  17. jfosh

    jfosh Super

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    There are a lot of things we should do. That should not be the litmus test for our decisions. Healthcare is not a right like freedom of speech. The constitiution does not provide an article that reads "the government shall provide healthcare for everyone" or nearly everyone for that matter. Reforming healthcare should be about lowering the costs, increased accessiblity, and improved care.

    Money is not a covenience issue its a reality issue. Where do you stop with your compassion? We will run out of money before we can pass "judgement".
     
  18. MaxATX34

    MaxATX34 Texas Football

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    What is the point of having a country? Is it to help each other, and stand on the shoulders of those who came before us in order to make the world(and our country) better for those who come after us? Isnt it supposed to offer up a sense of pride to its citizens, and to offer some sort of protection and help to said citizens?

    Or is it to screw each other over as hard as possible in a mad dash to make a bunch of money before we die? Are countries supposed exist only as a money-making aid for those who already have the means to make money?

    Even if countries only exist to make money or to aid in the money-making process, wouldnt it make more sense for countries to find a cheap way to keep all their citizens healthy and able as long as possible so the citizens can work longer and contribute more over their lifetime?
     
  19. Archie Griffin

    Archie Griffin Walk On

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    Actually, it is one of our most basic rights. Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

    Life - I take this as - no individual or group has more of a right to live than any other. Right now, some of us have a right to life, and some don't.

    Liberty - Most of us don't really know what this means. I'm going to leave it alone for not, except to sat that those who are sick and not allowed to get well (different from the chronically ill) are less free than the rest.

    The pursuit of happiness - I take this as - we all have the right to enjoy equality in the opportunities for happiness this country allows. We don't get this one even close to right. Most of us enjoy the pursuits allowed to us by birth, race, and economic class. Now, surely people succeed regardless of where they start, but all that American dream stuff (you know, work hard and you'll go places) is a big steamy load. Hard work and dedication CAN get you a long way, but these things only guarantee success for people who fit a rather narrow demographic. The rest need hard work, dedication, and luck. Luckily, I fit the demographic, but that's all it is ... luck.

    So, I would argue that health care is a right for all of us as soon as it becomes a right for any of us. If you and your kids have a right to see a doctor, then everyone does. Life is as basic a right as we have in this country. How can this simple reading of our Constitution be completely unknown to everyone (and by everyone, I refer to the argument as a whole, and the people making it in the press).

    And make no mistake, life is what we're talking about. Hearing American citizens argue about how they don't have enough money is like hearing Wilt Chamberlain talk about how he wished he banged more women in his life. I mean, we're crazy rich as a nation, and we enjoy the highest standard of living in the history of the world. What is enough? Our poorest are upper middle class in 90% of the countries on the planet. We can't seem to come up with enough ways to invent needs so we can spend more money. (If you need reference material, go to Wal-Mart or watch any Billy Mays commercial).

    We are greed. We are excess. We are easily the most self-indulged generation in history, any history. I'd pay an extra quarter for tube socks if it would get Wal-Mart out of my neighborhood and bring back the family business. Hell, I'd pay an extra dollar. And I would gladly pay higher taxes to beat back the mighty mighty corporations and bring care to those who don't have it.

    We can haggle about the details, but we need to address the realities. If any of you think some of us don't have a right to health care, then I suggest we go to a hospital oncology ward, find the laid off factory worker who just got sent home to die because he doesn't have insurance, and make the argument to him. Let's put a face to the problem. If anyone can tell that guy he needs to die so we don't have to pay for his care, then I will concede the argument.

    If not, then we should be talking about how we can help him without sinking the ship for the rest of us. We can do right without giving away the store.

    AG
     
  20. GoGators

    GoGators GT: KSherm

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    Again, I agree with Archie.

    I'd imagine that there is a very high correlation between people who have never experienced a life altering illness and people who don't believe everyone should have health care. As Archie stated, could any of you tell a factory worker whose worked hard his whole life doing a job necessary for this country to sustain itself, that many of us white collar workers wouldn't do, that he doesn't deserve health care when faced with a mortality?

    Take it a step further, what if said worker had a child who was diagnosed with leukemia or some other crazy immune disorder, should that child not be provided health care? He/she hasn't even been given a chance to support itself but should be punished because of birth right??? It's absolutely ridiculous.

    Isn't it ironical that we, as a rich country who is blessed with so much, will spend billions and billions of dollars going to fight wars in other countries instead of taking care of our own here in the states?

    I understand that a public plan will come filled with issues. Just like anything else the government takes control of or operates, it's bound to fail and cause massive problems.

    I believe health care just needs to be reformed. You shouldn't be denied coverage due to previous illnesses. You shouldn't have a limited selection of insurance providers. Why should the insurance companies be protected from competition? You should be able to go online and customize your health care in a similar fashion to what you can do for auto insurance. And you definitely shouldn't be screened and prevented from obtaining coverage. If the only people who can have insurance for cancer are the people that are unlikely of ever getting cancer, what the hell's the point of insurance???

    This mess goes much further than health care though. As drifter has stated, people will scam this and people would receive government benefits that shouldn't. If the IRS did it's job, this shouldn't happen. I just read a story the other day stating how the IRS was going to begin investigating people who were reporting less than 50k/year in income but still managed to live in multimillion dollar homes. Seriously??? They just figured out that this might not be right. This stuffs been going on for years and now they are going to investigate it. It's a joke. It's all the same with the government it seems, great ideas + poor execution = American government

    Lastly, (and not specifically towards Obama) when will we ever elect a president who's actually the best person to run a country instead of the person who can generate the most in fund raising???

    Sorry if I got a little off topic haha.
     
  21. MaxATX34

    MaxATX34 Texas Football

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    I dont mean to be all gloomy and stuff, but we dont elect our president. the electoral college decides. and we dont vote on who gets to be in the electoral college. this is why we are not truly a democracy. America is a "democratic" Republic.
     

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