Kick or Receive to start the game?

Discussion in 'NCAA Football' started by Shaun Mason, Jan 7, 2011.

  1. Shaun Mason

    Shaun Mason Somebody you used to know.

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2009
    Messages:
    24,887
    Featured Threads:
    5


    I've seen this debated in a couple of leagues, where the consensus has often been that it is "sim" to take ball to start but that it somehow put the receiving team at a disadvantage. I have always thought it more valuable to get the ball at half. I read an interested article today that pretty much verifies what I have always known, without any read data.

    I know some of you football guys might enjoy this.

     
  2. xGRIDIRONxGURUx

    xGRIDIRONxGURUx GO DUCKS. WIN THE DAY.

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2010
    Messages:
    723
    the consensus is ridiculous on this one... i dont understand how this decision has any reflection on "sim" play... i ALWAYS kick, even if the team im playing sucks hard core...

    "E"
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. justadude

    justadude Walk On

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2010
    Messages:
    116
    "sim" play being a reflection of real life play. If the team that wins the toss takes the ball 90% of the time in real life, then "sim" play would be to take the ball 90% of the time upon winning the toss. Your style of play, always choosing to kick, does not make the consensus "ridiculous". If the consensus is founded in fact is a different matter.
     
  4. xGRIDIRONxGURUx

    xGRIDIRONxGURUx GO DUCKS. WIN THE DAY.

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2010
    Messages:
    723
    so going with the 10% of "real" coaches and kicking, makes you not "sim" because you dont follow the majority... it would seem that the argument says... you have a choice to play "sim/real" like 90% or 10%... both would be sim choices because it patterns after real life decisions...

    you can word it however you want, but kicking 100% of the time when you win the toss is strategy just like taking the ball first... why there is a coin toss, and a decision...

    "E"
     
  5. Shaun Mason

    Shaun Mason Somebody you used to know.

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2009
    Messages:
    24,887
    Featured Threads:
    5
    This was my point by "sim". In real life they either take the ball or if the wind is a difference maker sometimes they defer to the 2nd half.

    But the data suggests that the opportunity to increase your possessions makes it smarter to kick the ball...which most people do in user games because they know this even if it is not founded in any data.
     
  6. GoGators

    GoGators GT: KSherm

    Joined:
    May 19, 2009
    Messages:
    7,893
    In all my years playing football all the coaches I ever played for always chose to defer to the second half.

    IMO, majority of coaches in college and pros today select to defer to the second half. Look at Auburn this season. They always chose to defer to the second half until the SEC championship. Then Chizik decided they needed to mix it up and get off to a fast start so they chose to receive first. I don't think it's unsim to defer.

    Also, imo, it's an erroneous argument. In a coin toss the probability is you win 50% of the time. So even if you choose to defer to the second half 100% of the time when you win the coin toss, that's still only 50% of the games you play. In user vs user games it's fair.

    Now an argument could be made that against the CPU you should choose to receive if you win since that's what EA has programmed the CPU to do seemingly 99% of the time. Therefore, the only way to get the 50% balance would be to also choose receive when you win the coin toss vs the CPU.
     
  7. Bl0ndeRedHead

    Bl0ndeRedHead Official TSO Pothead

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2010
    Messages:
    7,981
    I honestly can't remember the last time anyone I played chose "receive"...I thought it was common knowledge everyone wanted it at half...
     
  8. xGRIDIRONxGURUx

    xGRIDIRONxGURUx GO DUCKS. WIN THE DAY.

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2010
    Messages:
    723
    my thoughts exactly... its like overtime... you always want defense first... you stop and score you win - compare to game: if you get a stop and score then you are in the driver seat for the game until you give up a turnover...

    i have a good heisman set where the CPU will choose to kick if it is a higher rated team @ around 50% of the time... so i do see it some but you are right it does seem like 99.99999999% they take ball...

    "E"
     
  9. Cheez

    Cheez TSO's 1,000,000th Poster

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2010
    Messages:
    8,933
    one of my oldest points of contention with this game is that they dont even have the option to defer, or the second half choices in the game.

    I have seen games where a team has opened both halves with the ball (rare, but it happens. primarily in games where wind / weather is a MAJOR factor).
     
  10. Shaun Mason

    Shaun Mason Somebody you used to know.

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2009
    Messages:
    24,887
    Featured Threads:
    5
    I am trying to be nice when I say this:
    1. How in the hell does sliders influence the coin toss? Did I miss that slider.
    2. For your sake and my sanity's sake: please stop pimping your sliders. Damn near every dynasty here uses All American. Most people (myself included) HATE Heisman. It sucks...I have tried every set of sliders in the world I think and none of them are remarkably better than any other set.

    Post them up in the Coaches Lounge and discuss them in that thread and in that thread only.:)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. xGRIDIRONxGURUx

    xGRIDIRONxGURUx GO DUCKS. WIN THE DAY.

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2010
    Messages:
    723
    #1 on Heisman they will defer... but since you hate that mode you obviously dont see it?

    #2 im not pimpin my sliders... i dont need to post them anywhere... i simply made reference to my sliders... and im sorry if the people that worked your Heisman sliders in the past didnt get them right...? i also have AA sets and Varsity sets... its not that i "pimp" them as you say... just making reference to HEISMAN... if i would have posted my sliders and took up space... like you know this random gibberish is... then i can see the need for the comment, i just made reference to Heisman... because the CP will defer... thats all...

    "E"
     
  12. justadude

    justadude Walk On

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2010
    Messages:
    116
    The wording of my argument established a simple definition of "sim" play and how a community comes to a consensus regarding such play. My argument also questions if the consensus reached by the community is founded in fact (if the numbers the community believes to be true, are indeed true). The wording of my argument does not mention or question strategy once. The percentage I included was not a reflection of individual coaches and their strategies, but an event.

    I find the "going with the 10% of "real" coaches" argument a difficult one, because it opens up the possibility to define anything as "sim" play. I am sure we can find a team somewhere that throws the majority of its passes to its slot receivers on post patterns. There are teams that completely forgo kicking, opting to go for it on 4th down, regardless. These may be real life stategies and have true merit, but they hardly reflect football as it is generally played.

    Regarding the actual post, I generally follow my gut feeling, the only sure thing being that I will take the wind if it s applicable. I have also had good success taking the ball and marching down the field. A long drive can be frustrating to user opponents, who the often go three and out, lacking offensive rhythm. This allows me to have possession much of the first quarter, often going up two scores in the process.

    I think third down conversions and gained field position are more important than number of possesions.
     
  13. JerzeyReign

    JerzeyReign #BeatOhio

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2009
    Messages:
    10,893
    If you mash the 'X' button you have a better shot at the CPU giving you the ball... its like when you see your player commit a facemask penalty, if you mash the 'X' button you won't get the penalty majority of the time if the slider is set to default... actual game sliders have nothing to do with it and please stop saying 'Whoever made your Heisman sliders up did them wrong!'... I'm the only one who offered my Heisman set to the community so I take that e-personal;)... especially since alot of guys like them on OS or base their sets off of mine #justsayin'


    Edit: BTW, I think someone categorizing receiving or kicking the ball as sim a little 'much'... I prefer to have the ball first to get my offense moving... most of my user games are low scoring so I like putting the pressure on the opposing coach to 'show his hand' first.
     
  14. Wick36

    Wick36 Welcome to the Jungle

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2010
    Messages:
    5,283
    This!
    That really bothers me about this game.

    --------

    Anyway, I always thought that what the computer chose was based off of what you pick and the results of those games. It might sound crazy... but if I remember correctly, when I first got this game, I was picking kick first every time. I actually remembered the CPU choosing to kick. Eventually, I ended up just tapping the A button through the coin toss, so as I picked receive more, they picked receive more. Maybe it was just pure coincidence, or I'm not remembering correctly. =/
     
  15. nikpin

    nikpin Universitas Brunensis

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2010
    Messages:
    4,126
    I'm a big fan of receiving the ball in the 2nd half. I think people tend to play more conservative early in the game so you’re more likely to get defensive stops at that point it seems. Not to mention maximizing possessions as stated in the article. If your trailing and can put together a 2 for 1 2nd quarter plus scoring to open up the 2nd half your looking at a 21-7 advantage which would make a game that was looking like a blow out a lot closer and swing momentum in your favor.

    Also I tend to agree with the more aggressive approach of going for it on 4th down than happens IRL. I think a 4th and 3 or less inside the opponents 40 is go time but I rarely do this in game except on the goal line due to it being considered against league rules in most cases. I can understand why most coaches don’t do it IRL. They’ve got media backlash, boosters in their ear and it’s so much easier to take the conservative route and go with the status quo which won’t hurt job security.
     
  16. Shaun Mason

    Shaun Mason Somebody you used to know.

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2009
    Messages:
    24,887
    Featured Threads:
    5
    1. I've heard about your "slider sets" too much.
    2. This post is a discussion I found interesting.
    3. I'll make whatever comment I want.
     
  17. BDSDIGITAL

    BDSDIGITAL One Time for your Mind

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2009
    Messages:
    8,828
    i choose to receive all the time. Just how I get down.
     
  18. xGRIDIRONxGURUx

    xGRIDIRONxGURUx GO DUCKS. WIN THE DAY.

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2010
    Messages:
    723
    1. wah
    2. i hope so you started it
    3. you are a big boy... you sure can :thumbsup:

    "E"
     
  19. Shaun Mason

    Shaun Mason Somebody you used to know.

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2009
    Messages:
    24,887
    Featured Threads:
    5
    Keep it up.
     
  20. broth262

    broth262 Dirty Terps

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2010
    Messages:
    2,177
    Featured Threads:
    1
    Well so the way I see it, it depends on your team and your opponent. More times then not I kick at the beginning of the game because this allows you to more easily gain a possesion. If you can score going into the half and then get the ball, that is a huge advantage, especially if you are behind.

    The only time I ever see it making sense to receive is if you are a team that has a terrible defense, or you are a major underdog on the road.

    Terrible Defense: If your defense is terrible then getting on the board early is big and can sometimes force your opponent out of their gameplan and their comfort zone.

    Underdog: If you are playing against a better team getting on the board first is huge. Falling behind early can be disastrous if your team is worse.

    So basically to sum it up, I almost always kick unless it is one of those two cases I explained above.
     
  21. RadarRider

    RadarRider Montage!

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2011
    Messages:
    893
    There is no "sim" when it comes to kick or recieve...some coaches want to win the toss, other want to lose. Coaches will decide to recieve others will defer, forcing the other team to take the ball.

    Anyone who tries to make a rule based on the coin toss is an idiot...in my opinion. It is all about the style you play, some people like to score and score quickly, putting the pressure on the other person to keep up.

    Me, I like a slow offense that move the ball 4-7 yards a play. So I kick, I let you play the way you want on your first drive, my goal is to score with little time left in the first half. I get the ball to start the second half, then speed up my O a little leaving...1-2 minutes left on the clock in the 3rd qrtr (depending on how a person plays) that way I get a solid 3 minutes in the 4th to win the game. I have a more in-depth way of playing, this is a spark noted version...I do not feel like writing a book on the subject :)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  22. Wick36

    Wick36 Welcome to the Jungle

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2010
    Messages:
    5,283
    Pretty old thread. :)
     
  23. RadarRider

    RadarRider Montage!

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2011
    Messages:
    893
    I know but I saw it and had to respond. It's a topic I always hear about and I never put my two cents in, late or early. I was a team captain, I did the coin toss every game, I heard all the strategies, it might be the only thing in Madden and NCAA that is truely sim...
     
  24. Eyeke

    Eyeke Swashbuckler

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2011
    Messages:
    407
    One of my unwritten strategies is to defer to second half and try to get a 2 for 1 going into halftime. I pull this off more often than you'd expect, scoring with less than a minute left in the first half and then getting the ball back.

    I receive if I like my offense more than my defense. I go first in OT in the same situation. I always feel more confident playing with a lead and make better defensive decisions in those situations.

    My playstyle is not to limit possessions, instead to control 3rd downs. I expect to convert 60+% and hold my opponent under 40% and to date from all games played I'm at 63.82% (2468/3867)converted and holding teams to 38.57%(1968/5102) in NCAA 11. User games I am over 70% conversion but I also allow nearly 50%. It's an area I'm working to improve for sure.

    Kicking or receiving makes zero impact over hundreds of games, but specific opponents it matters.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  25. Cheez

    Cheez TSO's 1,000,000th Poster

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2010
    Messages:
    8,933
    I know I posted in this thread earlier about not being able to defer - but here's my typical strategy.

    For most games: I try exactly what eyeke said - receive in the second half so that I can hopefully pull a two for one and really swing the game in my favor.

    However, say I'm a big underdog, or im playing a pretty tough user - at this point I feel it's most important to try and score first, and I will receive to start the game in an attempt to do just that.
     

Share This Page