Latest 4th down rule

Discussion in 'TMFL' started by Taken, Dec 16, 2010.

  1. Taken

    Taken Walk On

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    It was 4 and 3 on my 49 yard line only 1:30 left in 3 quater I was down by two scores, A touchdown and a field goal or something like that. I went for it because i didnt know the rules say 2 touchdowns, not two scores! what do you guys think about changing the 4th down rule! Give us ideas. I dont think its right to be down two scores and on the 49 yard line and 4th and 3 only 1:30 left in 3 quater and cant go for it!
     
  2. Keller

    Keller The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

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    I think I agree with Taken. I was told that he converted it, scored, but on his next possession punted the ball back on 1st down to the Bengals because Nate was so upset that he went for it in this situation. While it is clear that within our current rules, Taken broke the rule, I don't think it is true that our rule is 100% where we all want it to be. In the future I'd like to see maybe a little more communication on this one.

    If it were me, this is clearly not a terrible situation to go for it. He's at midfield, hes down by two scores, hes in a manageable distance with only 3 yards. Its not like he was on his own 20 on 4th and 15, know what I mean.

    I think that we should at least say that if you are down by two scores at X time in the 3rd and later you may go for it if it is 4th and Y or less. Obviously we can tweak X and Y to fit what everyone is comfortable with.
     
  3. rushers24

    rushers24 Walk On

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    My two cents. I think the 4th down rule could possibly be tweaked, but I'm not really sure what it should be. The line has to stop somewhere. Would we be able to go for it in the same situation in the 3rd Q if we were on our own 40? How bout our own 35, or 30? And what if it was 4th and 4, or 4th and 5? The rule obviously would have to be very specific.

    I think changing this rule would certainly benefit owners who play more aggressively, and would go for it in a situation like that instead of punting and playing it safe. Down by 10 or 11 is not a huge margin with a quarter left to play. There is still plenty of time to get back into the game, and what I don't want is people automatically going for it in these situations just because the rule says you can. In real NFL, I'd say most teams would punt the ball in that situation. Probably like 60-40. On top of that, I'm not sure how I would feel if my opponent went for it 2 or 3 different times in the 3rd Q in similar types of situations. It is very hard to stop offenses in this years game, so when I finally do, I don't know if I want people going for it on 4th down in the 3rd Q in before they reach mid field. Especially when it's more than 4th and 1 or inches.

    I'm not saying I'm not for it. I'm just on the fence right now. I would like to see what everyone else thinks, and maybe we can come up with something reasonable but not to drastic.
     
  4. NateDawg

    NateDawg GT- MIZ Nighthawk

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    Whoa whoa before I get bashed on anymore let me clarify:

    First: 2 scores is very general- taken was down 10 points with about half of the third and the full fourth quarter left.

    Second: I don't know where you get you're info Keller but saying Nate was "so upset" is a HUGE exaggeration! I sent him a message when he called the play saying he can't go for it. He ignored the message and went for it. We decided together that it was fair to punt it off since he broke the rules.

    Please don't act like I overreacted when, as you said, the rules explicitly state that you can't go for it in that situation. If we want to say this is a fair time to go for it then we need to figure out a set of rules to follow, but I think with 10 minutes of game to go (not to mention three timeouts and a two minute warning) a 10 point deficit can be overcome with no problem.
     
  5. JoHud

    JoHud Walk On

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    I think rusher is right, you have to place the line somewhere. Realistic or not the rule was broken and I can understand the opponent being upset. The games in this league are long and it should have been punted in that situation. How many coaches in the NFL would go for it in that situation? I would say easing up the 4th down rule moves you farther from SIM and closer to arcade.

    Some friends and I had played with the following 4th down rules since 1991:
    You kick on 4th down unless: You are down by 17+, or you are losing in the 4th qtr. Where you were on the field did not matter, because we always wanted to keep field position and the ability to kick well part of the game. Field position is one of the most important aspects of the game and these "cross the 50 and your good" rules help remove that aspect.

    When you watch sports center the highlights show you the 1 or 2 risky play calls that worked or didn't work, but they never show the 50+ by the book calls like punting from your 40 down by 10 points in the 4th qtr.

    As a wise man once said "Don't remove the "foot" from football".
    Just my 2 cents....
     
  6. JoHud

    JoHud Walk On

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    I don't think anyone is bashing you bro. Sounds like it worked out, you guys comunicated and he punted the next time on 1st down. I think it's a good discussion.....
     
  7. antcap24

    antcap24 Walk On

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    03.01 - Going on 4th Down
    We encourage straight play in this league, however, we do not want to limit players to the point where they cannot play aggressively. With that in mind, there will be a simple rule on 4th downs:


    * Whenever you are past the 50 yard line with 1 yard or less to go, you are permitted to go for it on 4th down.
    * If you are behind by two touchdowns or more in the second half, you can go for it whenever you like.
    * If you are the losing team in the 4th quarter, you can go for it whenever you like.
    * If you're going to go for a 4th down conversion in a questionable situation during a PvP game, please attempt to notify your opponent first, if possible.

    Ok, so the first 3 points are absolutes. You can go for it in these situations. Now point #4 is where the gray starts.

    What is considered questionable?

    If Taken felt this was a questionable situation, he was abiding by the rules.
    If Nate Dawg didn't feel this was a questionable situation and that he was breaking the rules... Arguments happen.

    I can see both sides.
     
  8. NateDawg

    NateDawg GT- MIZ Nighthawk

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    My bad maybe I misread it but I felt like Keller was acting like he couldn't believe I had him punt it back to me
     
  9. NateDawg

    NateDawg GT- MIZ Nighthawk

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    Correction: he was not abiding by the rules because he never attempted to notify me. He just went for it.
     
  10. antcap24

    antcap24 Walk On

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    Unless we make it so clear and cut dry, there will always be gray area.

    Say its 4th and 2 in the 1st Q on my opponents 34 yard line, and I am starring a 17 MPH wind in my face. I know my kicker is not going to make the kick, and to punt it I would be netting next to nothing. I think most NFL coaches would go for it. Would we be allowed?

    I would probably punt it to save the argument, but if someone went for it there, I can see why.
     
  11. antcap24

    antcap24 Walk On

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    I absolutely think a discussion before the play should have been in order. But say at that point you both disagree. What happens then?
     
  12. NateDawg

    NateDawg GT- MIZ Nighthawk

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    Yeah I definitely see your point. That is why I don't think we should have a gray area in the rules like this. We need to come up with a solid line so we know exactly when we can/can't.
    Just my opinion
     
  13. rushers24

    rushers24 Walk On

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    Great points. I think if your within the 4th down rules, then you can go for it without notifying your opponent. But, if your are in a situation like that with the wind, that's when you should discuss it first before attempting to for it. You should do this on any type of gray area situation where you feel you must go for it but it's not within the rules.

    Another example would be... your down by 24 points in the second Q, and you have had no luck stopping anyone on defense. It's 4th and 2 from your own 47 yard line and you feel you must go for it to get back into the game. Going for it in this situation is not permitted in the rules, but yet would make sense and is not unreasonable. And these types of situations are the ones you should notify your opponent to talk about first.
     
  14. rushers24

    rushers24 Walk On

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    In Taken's situation, I do not feel it was unreasonable to go for it there. But I also think that he was still very much in the game, and he didn't have to go for it there with another quarter left to be played and all timeouts. Taken was not wrong in wanting to go for it, he was wrong in not notifying his opponent first.
     
  15. Keller

    Keller The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

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    Nate, sorry if you feel like I was coming at you, that could not be further from the case. Again, my apologies.

    This is a very difficult issue to work through for ALL leagues. Lets try to navigate this as carefully as we can - I don't want to see people's tempers flaring or anyting of the sort. Lets just have a nice honest discussion and come up with a resolution that we can agree on.

    My proposal:

    * Whenever you are past the 50 yard line with 1 yard or less to go, you are permitted to go for it on 4th down.
    * If you are behind by two scores or more in the third quarter, you can go for it if you are beyond your own 40 and yards to gain = 5 or less.
    * If you are the losing team in the 4th quarter, you can go for it whenever you like.
    * If you're going to go for a 4th down conversion in a situation other than what is 100% explicitly listed above, you MUST contact your opponent first to discuss.
    * Fake punts are not allowed
     
  16. rushers24

    rushers24 Walk On

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    So with that proposal, my opponent would be able to go for it on his own 40 yard line on 4th and 5 at the start of the 3rd Quarter? Not sure if I completely agree with that when only being down by 9 or 10 points that early in the game.
     
  17. Keller

    Keller The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

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    then what do you propose?
     
  18. rushers24

    rushers24 Walk On

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    I don't know really. It's a really hard rule to tweak. But I think that opens things up too much, and as JoHud sayed, I think that would taking a step back from SIM and step forward to Arcade. I will think about it and see if I can some up with something.
     
  19. NateDawg

    NateDawg GT- MIZ Nighthawk

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    Wait did you edit that post Keller? I didn't see that other information the first time.

    I don't agree with the second bullet (If you are down by 2 scores or more in the third quarter). 5 yards or less is WAY too much in my opinion. I, personally, wouldn't like to see it go past 2 yards or less in the third quarter down by two scores.

    Also, I think a 10 point lead is much more doable than a 14 point lead. My reasoning here is that if you hold your opponent to a field goal it is still a 2 possession game.
     
  20. Keller

    Keller The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

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    I did edit the post Nate, not your fault.

    I want you guys to come up with your own proposals - I need ideas. We can hammer this thing out if we get everything chiming in.
     
  21. NateDawg

    NateDawg GT- MIZ Nighthawk

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    My proposal:

    - When you are past the 50 yard line with 1 yard or less to go you can go for it on 4th
    - If you are the losing team in the fourth quarter: you can go for it on 4th at any time
    - If you are down by 11 points or more with 3:00 or less in the 3rd quarter with 3 yards to go or less on 4th you may go for it.
    - No fake punts
    - No need to contact the owner because these are SET rules so we know when you can/can't and there is no argument

    I know that third point is very specific, but that's just my opinion. I'd definitely be open to hearing what other people think about this/ what their proposal is. My reasoning for 11 points is that if it is 10 points, if you do end up scoring, you are still able to hold your opponent to a field goal and be in the game.
     
  22. JoHud

    JoHud Walk On

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    The only thing I do not like about this rule is you have a calculas formula on your second point that can just add a ton of confusion. I am not a fan of placing yard lines in the rules because field position can sometimes be just as important as points even if you are behind, and we should keep the "foot" in football.

    What if you just say
    *If you are down by 3 scores+(17 points) at any time it is game on wide open. Lets face it, if your up by 17 and the opponent decides to go for it on 4th and 6 from there 30, they are taking a huge gamble and you have stopped them so far, why can't you now? They convert, then score, then they are back to under 3 scores down, regular rules apply.
    *4th qtr you can go for it if you are behind, never if ahead.

    @Capparelli
    "Say its 4th and 2 in the 1st Q on my opponents 34 yard line, and I am starring a 17 MPH wind in my face. I know my kicker is not going to make the kick, and to punt it I would be netting next to nothing. I think most NFL coaches would go for it. Would we be allowed?"
    Well you know the situation on 3rd down so you know what you have to do.
     
  23. rushers24

    rushers24 Walk On

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    On JoHuds proposal...

    Ok, so say my opponent is down by 11 and it is 2 min left in the 3rd and it is 4th and 3 on his own 10. He's allowed to go for it?

    Or,

    Say it's 4th and and 4 with 2 seconds left in the 3rd on the 50 yard line. He can't go for it being down by 11?
     
  24. CWT 3000

    CWT 3000 Walk On

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    I have used these rules and similar ones as well. I think a hybrid version is in order. The situation above could have been communicated better to their opponent, otherwise they would have violated the 3's rule (see below).

    *Whenever you are past the 50 yard line with 1 yard or less to go, you are permitted to go for it on 4th down.
    I'd like this to say; if you are losing and you are past the 50 yard line with 2 yards or less you are permitted to go for it on 4th down at anytime.

    * If you are behind by two touchdowns or more in the second half, you can go for it whenever you like.
    This is how my friends and I have done it in the past; We call it the threes rule: Basically you may go for it if you are down 3 scores in the 3rd quarter and 3 minutes or less remain on the clock.

    * If you are the losing team in the 4th quarter, you can go for it whenever you like.
    Good rule. No need to change.

    * If you're going to go for a 4th down conversion in a questionable situation during a PvP game, please attempt to notify your opponent first, if possible.
    This is also a good rule, maybe the most important.
     
  25. rushers24

    rushers24 Walk On

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    My proposal really stays with the rule on how it is. There are certain situations where a 4th down may be necessary for a team but is outside of the rules. In those cases, as with Takens, each player must discuss it first, and if both sides agree then the 4th down attempt may be tried.

    So I propose a revision of the original rule that states -- Any 4th down attempts outside of these rules must be discussed first with your opponent. The 4th down try may only be attempted if both sides agree.
     

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