League Dialog

Discussion in 'The Deuce' started by Shaun Mason, Oct 20, 2011.

  1. Shaun Mason

    Shaun Mason Somebody you used to know.

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    Guys,

    I figured I would start the conversation since offseason is around the corner. First, I'm not trying to create a bitch fest here, honestly I think there are some undercurrents of discontent for the first time I can remember in The Deuce. I love you guys, seriously. The only reason I log into this site much of the time is because of you. That said, I want what is good for the league, despite my own preferences.

    We have a couple of issues I think that we need to get past.

    1. The stats arguments.

    Since when do we do this? We've had instances in the past where things got out of line, but we've all respected Drifter enough to know that he is doing his best to make the league fall in line with reality. Personally, I think the issue with OM's tight end runs deeper than his stats. Honestly he shouldn't have ever been able to recruit that guy, but it is what it is. OM's aware the the guy is a crazy freak. If the issue is where he lines up, move him outside and let's stop arguing. Arguing with a lawyer is pointless anyway.:) All of us know that the last time EA released a tuner pack it changed the game pretty dramatically. Obviously the sliders need to be adjusted to make it harder to run the ball, I think everyone is in agreement with that. Let's give Drifter time to adjust the league to that and call it a day.

    2. Coaching Carousel

    Personally, the only dynamic I've ever cared about with CC is that people be able to earn their place at a top job, then perform in a realistic fashion in order to keep that job. I know most of you seem to think that CC is "broken" and I will respectfully disagree, I think it has done a pretty fair job doling out opportunities give the restrictions WE placed on it. That said, I would prefer that people actually enjoy the league, obviously. We have Bondzai who has checked out for the year, khaalis who has check out for the year, and Jr who has already voiced his displeasure with things. My opinion is that people would have been far more satisfied with CC is we had allowed open movement. The builders could have stayed where they are, or moved up slightly to build, the acheivers could have moved up to bigger schools, etc. I never thought "balance" was that much of an issue with this group, I always thought "rivalry" was what made the group strong. Everyone wanted the same opportunity to compete, even if they never will. So, we have ended up where we are, with half the league uninterested or upset, either because they are bored being by themselves or because they aren't at the top of the heap yet. The question is now, how do we where everyone is happy?

    ====

    I'm not going to address the stats argumenents because all think all of us are grown ups and can let Drifter iron out those problems.

    As far as CC and team movement, we have a couple of interesting dynamics that need to be sorted out. In order to actually transition the team setup to a place where everyone is content, I would like to get a better idea of what people want, that way everyone is aware of everyone elses wants. We can only get to the point we are cohesive again if we all put aside our personal wants and look at what it will take to make the league stronger. I'm saying that despite my previous attempts to argue FOR CC.

    So, if everyone could answer my questions, I would appreciate it.

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    1. What is important for you to enjoy the league? Is it competitiveness, the ability to build, developing rivalries, etc?

    2. If you were in charge, how would teams look?

    3. Do you feel it is unfair/unwise to have success tied to team selection?

    4. What does "balance" mean to you?

    5. What issues harm your enjoyment in the league? Examples include: things that are not realistic, etc.
     
  2. Jmustang1968

    Jmustang1968 Walk On

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    1. What is important for you to enjoy the league? Is it competitiveness, the ability to build, developing rivalries, etc?

    All the above. Knowing that I have to leave Rice has really hampered my enjoyment of the team. I really dont care much about them, or I start to but then make myself not get attached because I know I will move on. I want to be in a competitive user division, starting off with a mediocre to bad school I can build up, and with other users who start with similarly talented programs. I also want to be the HC, I do not enjoy the game near as much if I am an OC.

    2. If you were in charge, how would teams look?

    I dont think people should be jumping up to A overall schools after leaving C talent schools this early. We are getting too good, too fast, and these schools will dominate. I want to go into the Big or PAC with one of the lower tier teams, but if I know I have to go against a successful owner like Keller with an Ohio St powerhouse, that really dampens the excitement. I love a challenge, and dont mind losing, but playing against that with a C+ team sounds futile.

    3. Do you feel it is unfair/unwise to have success tied to team selection?

    I think it is fair to a degree. Having coaches start with a team handicap based on past success is a good starting point. I think most of us were having a good time at the start of this OD with the MAC and CUSA set up. Once people started moving, it wasnt as fun anymore.

    4. What does "balance" mean to you?

    Even division user distribution in 2 or 3 conferences. Some guys in this dynasty can dominate cpu given a decent team and need users in the division or conference to challenge them. This also creates conference rivalries which adds to the experience.

    5. What issues harm your enjoyment in the league? Examples include: things that are not realistic, etc.

    -Playing in a conference/division by myself.
    -Allowing other users to be in a conference or division by themselves. Me and/or other users starting off with a really good team or jumping up to a very good team too early. I wouldnt have taken a Michigan/USC/Ohio St job this early in the program, too boring. Where is the challenge?
    -Other users not caring or not interested in the dynasty rubs off some and makes it not as appealing. I came into this season thinking this was a waste of a year, and I am trying to make the best of it. However, it is a chore to get my games in, I dont actually look forward to them...
    -Knowing that my recruiting is mostly meaningless. Why spend all the effort recruiting when I wont get lasting use of my players?
     
  3. Shaun Mason

    Shaun Mason Somebody you used to know.

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    Thanks.

    In reference to #3, how do you feel about demotion if people are fired?
     
  4. Jmustang1968

    Jmustang1968 Walk On

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    In theory I am fine with it, but I have a feeling guys who get demoted might check out and lose interest in the OD
     
  5. Bondzai

    Bondzai Your Mom's Best Friend

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    I haven't checked out at all. I played my last 2 games....killed Memphis and lost a heartbreaker to USM in triple overtime. I missed a couple of games but not because I just didn't want to play.

    1. What is important for you to enjoy the league? Is it competitiveness, the ability to build, developing rivalries, etc?

    I like to try to build a team up (usually after bringing a good team down). Rivalries are a good thing, I think Mustang and I had a great rivalry. We almost always played in the CC game and we've both won it. Trying to beat him each year, along with Southern Miss and UAB was a big deal for me each season. Competitiveness is great but some guys are just better than others.

    2. If you were in charge, how would teams look?

    Two conferences and no changing of teams.

    3. Do you feel it is unfair/unwise to have success tied to team selection?

    I always want people to want the team they have. No one should ever be forced to take a certain team.

    4. What does "balance" mean to you?

    Everyone having similar tools to be able to try and succeed.

    5. What issues harm your enjoyment in the league? Examples include: things that are not realistic, etc.

    The only reason that this season has been less enjoyable for me was because I know that no matter what happens I'm leaving UCF after this season.
     
  6. Keller

    Keller The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

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    1. What is important for you to enjoy the league? Is it competitiveness, the ability to build, developing rivalries, etc?
    Recruiting is my main draw, despite being pretty terrible at it. Something about the chase that really intrigues me, which is why being at Ohio State is so exciting. I get to pick from the cream of the crop now, so it will be cool to see how those guys grow up and develop compared to my Buffalo team. Outside of that, really the interest lies with the other members of the league. Discussions, shooting the shit on offseason night, all that stuff is really my main interest. To me, things that happen in the games are secondary. Does it still kill me inside when I lose to Lawdog? You bet. But to me those games are so stressful they sometimes cease to be fun - they definitely aren't my main reason for playing in the league. Having a good rapport between everyone is clutch.

    2. If you were in charge, how would teams look?
    If I were in charge, Lawdog would have been forced to take a team in the B1G. He is, arguably, the only other coach that earned a job there. There are others like Mustang but Lawdog had his pick of so many teams, just not the good B1G teams - so conceivably he would have been able to land at Wisconsin or Nebraska or just about wherever really. I'm secretly hoping we save Michigan for Bondzai though, lol. As far as the others, this is pretty much how I envisioned things turning out. Some people are going to get to move earlier than others - the others have to now clean up in their conferences and get a decent job. At the same time, if i were running the show - as I mentioned above - a good rapport between everyone is paramount and whats the point in doing all of this if people aren't having fun. It really does not matter to me what happens as long as everyone's getting along and having as much fun with the league as they can.

    3. Do you feel it is unfair/unwise to have success tied to team selection?
    See above.

    4. What does "balance" mean to you?
    If we want to be "balanced" - there should be other teams in the B1G effective immediately. End of discussion. Again I go back to people having fun with the league. If things are "unbalanced" then people won't be having fun - as is the case now.

    5. What issues harm your enjoyment in the league? Examples include: things that are not realistic, etc.
    Obviously when people are attacking me at seemingly every turn. I should be able to voice my opinion without being attacked every time I say something. As much as I can remember, I have always stated that I am willing to accept whatever everyone thinks is the correct course of action. In just about every case, that has been my outlook. That shouldn't stop me from still having opinion about things - and shouldn't provoke anyone getting upset. Its just my opinion, I almost always have one and I almost always will weigh in on the different issues around the league. In the end there aren't going to be any changes where I will just say - okay fuck this I'm out. I'm okay with whatever everyone thinks is best - I'm just going to voice my opinion regardless.

    As far as realism etc - it really means nothing to me as far as what teams are where. Rice should be able to go to the PAC12 just like Buffalo should be able to go to the B1G. Conference movement is such a mess right now who really gives a shit?
     
  7. OMlawdog

    OMlawdog Going full Cheeze

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    1. What is important for you to enjoy the league? Is it competitiveness, the ability to build, developing rivalries, etc?

    All of the above. I personally don't like moving schools, but knew that was going to be something about this year's game that was different. The down side is that what has happened is that those left behind, really get screwed and end up having empy seasons. Im ready to correct that and get this league rolling again.

    2. If you were in charge, how would teams look?

    Moving forward from today, since we can't use a time machine? I would let CC try and work, and then if it didn't I would do two things. Allow all current co-ordinators to become head coaches at their current school if they wanted. Two, open up jobs for Big 10 jobs that aren't 6 star jobs. After that, rank coaches based on a combination of record, prestige; and let them pick a school to go as head coach in the big 10.


    3. Do you feel it is unfair/unwise to have success tied to team selection?

    Im not a huge fan of it. We have allowed certain users to pick teams that were good, and move fairly freely. If Khaalis wanted to move to a :5star: school, I wouldn't have a problem with it. He has been a great user, and has always taken the shittiest school out there. If he wanted to take a good team for once, I think he has clearly earned that right. Same goes for JR who always takes a crap school.

    4. What does "balance" mean to you?

    Balance is exactly what the first season of this year's game was. People forget how great that year was. Hell in the Mac everyone beat everyone. It was total balance, no team was tremendously better than anyone else's and overall the CPU and especially the USER games were awesome. I really think if we had locked in the MAC, it would have been fantastic. I still think we can get there in the Big 10, but it is going to be tough.

    5. What issues harm your enjoyment in the league? Examples include: things that are not realistic, etc.

    Oh, the normal crap. I think we have been playing together long enough that its almost like sibling fights. Drifter and I got into it about stats, but if he called me up today and said he was stuck 75 miles from Mobile, AL and needed help, I would hop in my car and go get him, and I've never met the dude. Sounds weird, but its true. What makes this league great is the group of guy we have in it, and recruiting and playing games against those guys. We need to get back to that. Regardless of the features of the game, we need to get back to having games against Users where BBJ chokes against me, where JR steals Bonds recruits, and Drifter undersells his team while rolling to conference championships, and we need to fix it now. This offseason. We can't have another season like this one where several users were just going through the motions. All of us have lives outside of this game and if the choice is play against the CPU Kent State or spend time with my wife, and Im the only one in the MAC, im going to spend time with my wife. Now if I have to play Kent State and that keeps Keller from going to the MAC championship game, Im playing that game even if my in-laws are at my house trying to have a dinner party.
     
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  8. OMlawdog

    OMlawdog Going full Cheeze

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    My opinion is that its a terrible idea for the league. Sure it may be realistic, but imagine if that feature applied to Bondzai the last two versions of the game? That would suck. It puts the game before the league, and in my opinion the league comes first. The idea that a committed user in this league would get relegated to have a season with a team in the CUSA for just a year? Just doesn't make sense in my humble opinion.
     
  9. OMlawdog

    OMlawdog Going full Cheeze

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  10. Drifterbub

    Drifterbub Help me hide a body?

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    I won't have time to reply until later, but I think most of my opinions on these have been aired out.
     
  11. bringbackjimmy

    bringbackjimmy WTFWTTD

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    My thoughts not that they would be taken..

    I would rather start over from scratch and do what we should have done to begin with..we have what almost 5 seasons, but there 5 wasted seasons. at our pace we could still do 10-12 seasons and have everybody interested. right now half the league is bored and not having any fun..i had 3 seasons at cmu with nothing show for it recruiting as i am not playing with any of the guys i recruited. 2 seasons at Cal and knowing that i hate OC i'll be trying to get a HC spot so another 2 yrs of wasted recruiting..

    This just isn't fun and i know i am not the only one to feel that way..it was a dumb idea to do CC if we were never planning on using it for what its for. i know i thought this is where we would be with some teams in and other left out...

    i'll do what you guys want but thats my stance..now drift can come in and say starting over is not a option
     
  12. Jmustang1968

    Jmustang1968 Walk On

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    The only thing starting over does is reset the rosters to current players. Otherwise we can just go with whatever new team we have be it cc or manually assigned and it is the same thing...
     
  13. OMlawdog

    OMlawdog Going full Cheeze

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    I think there is a compromise on the wasted seasons. If you were offered to be HC at Cal right now until the end of the dynasty (if you wanted) wouldn't you take it? and then your recruiting isn't wasted?
     
  14. Emmdotfrisk

    Emmdotfrisk Working half days on my days off.

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    1. What is important for you to enjoy the league? Is it competitiveness, the ability to build, developing rivalries, etc?

    I like all formats and usually have fun in any league regardless of the format. The thing that immerses me most into the game is being able to build a team to meet my playstyle. I don't know if it is because I suck or am picky but unless I have the certain players on my team that cater to my playstyle I usually lose. Its challenging to put forth the organization, planning and effort to get the right guys to build that and when I do it is really fun. I spend a lot of time recruiting role players, rather than BPA because I love formation subs and platoon type defenses/offenses.

    2. If you were in charge, how would teams look?

    If I was in charge I would have had CC a free for all (go and stay whereever you want) or 6 v 6 Big 10/pac 12

    3. Do you feel it is unfair/unwise to have success tied to team selection?

    Not all all. It certainly makes it difficult when you are trying get players to fit your style though. I have often found that I have to lean on my key players with any hopes of winning games, which often results in a total change of gameplan.

    4. What does "balance" mean to you?

    Balance means that everyone plays the same amount of user games from year to year.

    5. What issues harm your enjoyment in the league? Examples include: things that are not realistic, etc.

    Things to may harm the enjoyment is arguments over CC placement. The whole Keller to Ohio st argument didn't seem necessary as 2 or 3 members passed on opportunities to join the big 10. Sure they were DC or shitty jobs but the chance to remove Keller from an undefeated season was there.
     
  15. Timpegoose

    Timpegoose Walk On

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    1. What is important for you to enjoy the league? Is it competitiveness, the ability to build, developing rivalries, etc?

    The competition within the conferences and recruiting make the game enjoyable for me. For me, it wouldn't matter if we were all top teams, or all 1 star teams in the sun belt. This group of people makes almost any setup enjoyable, but when we get guys isolated it does take away from the league a little bit in my opinion.

    2. If you were in charge, how would teams look?

    I almost wouldn't mind putting everybody back in C-USA and the MAC... As Lawdog mentioned, those first 2-3 seasons were a lot of fun. Since that is not an option, I think we definitely need to get everybody into the 2 conferences at the end of this season, preferably after CC runs its course. Then we need to decide if we want to bump everybody up to head coach, or make us earn our head coaching positions.

    3. Do you feel it is unfair/unwise to have success tied to team selection?

    Yes, but I feel that grouping the users the way we did this year was beneficial to the league rather than randomly throwing us in divisions. There were some awesome divisional races the first couple of years.

    4. What does "balance" mean to you?

    IMO balance is nearly impossible to achieve. The good players are always going to get to the top unless you stack the greatly stack the odds against them. The best we can do is to have some of the top users play each other more often to keep each other down so to speak. That division of Lawdog, BBJ, and JR is a good example. If I remember right each of them played in a conference championship game at one point or another. Where if you threw Lawdog in a division with myself and Khaalis he would probably go every year.

    5. What issues harm your enjoyment in the league? Examples include: things that are not realistic, etc.

    To be honest about the only thing making this season less enjoyable is the fact that not everybody is enjoying themselves. Some of the bitching has gotten a bit old at times as well, but it was bound to happen with all of the new features we tried out this year and nobody really having a full understanding of how they worked.
     
  16. bringbackjimmy

    bringbackjimmy WTFWTTD

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    i didn't get offered at cal..we would still have cc thing on so we have potential for more wasted seasons by our selves even if the oc's were able to jump to hc of their current team. if nobody wants to play with current players just sim the 1st 4-5 seasons to get rid of them... it allows us to not use the feature and lets us pick teams we all want...my 1st choice wouldn't be to coach Cal. i only took it, because it was a better choice than cmu. just my 2 cents
     
  17. Shaun Mason

    Shaun Mason Somebody you used to know.

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    I'm not interested in restarting unless it's to do full blown CC.:). 75% of the league hates CC so...
     
  18. theSANDMAN215

    theSANDMAN215 Hokie, Hokie, Hokie, HI

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    I just want it like we had in the past. Right now, it's not. I'll post more tomorrow.
     
  19. bringbackjimmy

    bringbackjimmy WTFWTTD

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    obviously we wont do a full blown CC as we have figured out with 5 wasted seasons that it doesn't work with what we want to achieve.. evidenced by a qtr of the league being on automode this season..
     
  20. bringbackjimmy

    bringbackjimmy WTFWTTD

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    i really don't see why its a terrible idea to sim 5 seasons and get everyone a team they would be happy with. right now its like were staying in a loveless marriage because we have kids and everyone is miserable, because of it...
     
  21. Shaun Mason

    Shaun Mason Somebody you used to know.

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    Simming doesn't do anything except reset coach prestige, does it?
     
  22. bringbackjimmy

    bringbackjimmy WTFWTTD

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    simming 5 season would be basically what om and everyone else suggested, but instead of oc manually switching to their current teams HC(which you would lose everything anyways) and force moving the lower teams to big and pac(which again if forced they would lose thier stuff). gives us teams everyone want and turns off CC so nobody could be fired and forced to play a meaningless season.

    just admit are setup was failed from the get go and start over...
     
  23. Emmdotfrisk

    Emmdotfrisk Working half days on my days off.

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    I still don't get the advantages to starting over just to sim 5 seasons
     
  24. bringbackjimmy

    bringbackjimmy WTFWTTD

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    its for the people who don't want real players anymore..i dont care how we start over i just want people to have fun and not feel like its a chore to play it because they are not having any...
     
  25. Shaun Mason

    Shaun Mason Somebody you used to know.

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    I think collectively it is 11 to 1 vote to start over bringbackjimmy.
     
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