Legacy Players 2.0

Discussion in 'Thread Archive' started by RaiderRed90, Feb 14, 2016.

  1. RaiderRed90

    RaiderRed90 Rage Fiend

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    Gentleman,

    After much discussion between the commish team we have decided that Legacy Players will be returning. Some of you may be excited and inevitably some will be upset. However we feel that rewarding players for staying around is a huge part of HaW and we intend to continue the tradition.

    That being said i understand there will be some concerns so i will address a few of them here and if there are any questions i will field as many of them as i can answer.

    There is no news as of yet about madden 17 so understand that Legacy players are a fluid idea at this moment. Meaning the exact manner in which it will be executed is currently not concrete. However the idea is to bring the chosen player over as best we possibly can. We want to keep the "spirit" of the character alive if you will.

    I also know that we are announcing this late in the cycle so you may not have a rookie snapshot of your chosen legacy player. Luckily Daddyleagues has the attribute history available to us so we will have no trouble getting that information.

    That being said this thread is here for you to post your Legacy Player of choice. You only get one and it cannot be a Previous Legacy ( i.e.. it needs to be someone you drafted in Madden 16).

    You get one player and one post so please think about who you want to bring over. please do not blow this thread up with multiple posts, if you change your mind on a legacy player edit your post.
     
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  2. greatnessdc

    greatnessdc Walk On

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    [​IMG]
     
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  3. RFF

    RFF Walk On

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    I wish you all would reconsider. This is a mistake.
     
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  4. Mozaaik

    Mozaaik Walk On

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    Yes, I read the entire thing.

    Yes, I am still posting this here.

    [​IMG]

    I think being the first ever HaW drafted player should carry a little weight... and if not, here's $20. ;)
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2016
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  5. Freakskull

    Freakskull Lobsters are mermaids to scorpions.

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    I'm glad we started this early, so we can hear your thoughts. It helps to gather all pertinent opinions prior to any action. Can you start a new thread to discuss the potential pitfalls?

    ***Placeholder*** for my Legacy Pick
     
  6. RFF

    RFF Walk On

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    Can I be blunt Freakskull hskr8128 RaiderRed90 -- is this actually a debate you want to start before a decision is made? Because it seems like a decision has been made. If it's the former, then yes I will start a thread and outline my case, as I have extremely strong opinions on this and feel like we learned nothing from what was widely viewed as a unilateral mistake just a few months ago. But if it's the latter, a decision has been made and you are just not against hearing an opposing view, I'll save myself the time.
     
  7. hskr8128

    hskr8128 Walk On

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    It's a debate I want to have. Although I love legacy players, I haven't been shy about voicing my opinions against this. I remember what a disaster it was at release and I don't really want any part of that. Nothing has been finalized so it's important to get opinions out there now instead of scrambling last second to make your voice heard everyone.
     
  8. RyanRain39

    RyanRain39 Walk On

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    I liked the idea for the most part. I didn't have some monster of a player come in for me, but I have stability for a #1 WR on a team I was put on, that had nothing really. Obviously you have a WR like on the Buccaneers, (not even gonna try to spell it) who is just a freak of nature, which is a bit damaging to the system, so maybe some regulation in some form?
     
  9. Mattraq1

    Mattraq1 Walk On

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    Just call him Bo AJ for short . I wub him.

    *placeholder for my pick*
     
  10. Freakskull

    Freakskull Lobsters are mermaids to scorpions.

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    6 of the top 10 posts on r/madden are looking for replacements in leagues.

    I think legacy players would encourage the people we have to stay, and maybe get some back. I absolutely want to hear feedback, but honestly I'm about 95% in favor.
     
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  11. RFF

    RFF Walk On

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    I see. Well it sounds like the decision has effectively been made. Obviously I find this to be highly disappointing news about M17, but I appreciate the heads up this far in advance so we can all make our decisions accordingly. Thank you.
     
  12. Freakskull

    Freakskull Lobsters are mermaids to scorpions.

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    If I'm going to step on a rake, I want to be warned. I don't want to put you out, but what is the biggest reservation you have?
     
  13. TMo Boise

    TMo Boise Walk On

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    I agree with Rff. My take on this and why I dont like it is that drafts have a high degree of luck that comes with them in Madden. Not everyone got as lucky in drafting the perfect freak of nature player and I think it's ok to get his talents for 1 season but to carry this freak over to a new team and new season, well I think that's a bit much.

    I would have no problem doing it if there was a small degree of regulation involved as someone else already suggested.
     
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  14. RFF

    RFF Walk On

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    Why ditch legacy players?

    I'll just list some bullet points off the top of my head:

    1) We shouldn't need to bribe players to stick around with free players. The guys who are getting the players aren't the ones leaving, anyway. The reddit blurb you cited is meaningless as a supporting piece of evidence. A well run league that is a good fit for a player keeps him around, period.

    2) Alienates & makes even more difficult for new players. This should probably be #1. I'm a big believer in making things easier for new guys to attract more interest, not more difficult. You are giving the best, most experienced users an elite talent on top of already giving vet users priority for choice of team in M17. GLHF everyone else, I guess?

    3) Player imbalance. We have players in this cycle who literally do not exist in the game otherwise due to the changes from game to game. This cannot be "regulated." They would be worth multiple 1st round picks each. There are literally 0 WRs like what you could find in M15. There are 0 linemen like what you could get in M15. Drafted CBs from M15 were like 5-8 SPD faster than the 'real life' elite CBs in M17. It's just a silly mess.

    4) Talent level of the league. Related to #3 but more from a macro perspective, this is a huge influx of talent, many of which will as I said be worth multiple 1st round picks. This really skews gameplay in ways that are tough to predict.

    5) Flies against everything this league is supposed to be built around: encouraging team building, our best stab at a realistic NFL experience. Legacy players make team building far easier and greatly minimizes that aspect. Oh you drafted a stud QB in M16? Congrats, you literally no longer have to worry about this potentially major decision in M17.

    6) Related to #5, it imbalances trading in M16. So you gave up multiple picks to trade up to #1 overall--you now get twice the return on such a move. Especially as we head into the final couple drafts of this cycle, trading will be more about positioning for an elite legacy player. That harms THIS cycle as much as it does the next one.

    7) Fairness. This was already such a shitty process last Madden. Most of you old guys maybe have already forgotten or don't care because you were here in M15 and you got a legacy player. No matter where you set the cutoff, people are going to get boned. You think you're going to retain guys who have been here since M15 because they get a legacy player, but you are convinced that no new guys would potentially leave for not making this arbitrary cut? Really? Legacy players as a magical retention tool only works in one direction? More than one M15 vet got a legacy player who left and came back. The decision process was arbitrary. Even Keller said at the end of the day they went on "feel."


    Guys want legacy players because it preserves the status quo, and I will always be hugely against setting up rules favoring this. I've run leagues in previous games as well as a 30-man team across several years. The hardest thing to do is to convince your core guys that they should enable the newer guys and not vice versa. This is our very own little trivial version of Congress voting for their own pay raises: very few people will actively vote against their self-interest. Legacy players are self-interest. They are shiny toys, and it's really hard to say no to shiny toys.

    People sit around and wonder why TSO is supposedly a shell of its former self, and I don't see how it doesn't slap everyone in the face why that is. All these 'TSO vets' have created an old boys club and for the most part alienate new people, talk down to them, consider it beneath them. I just don't want to be part of a league that starts cultivating this same attitude. I love the challenge of having to start fresh when a new Madden releases, to prove oneself all over again. One of the selling points of the league when new players join in S5-S7 should be the prospect of joining a stable, fun league and that the new Madden (and everyone starting over on even footing) isn't far away if they just stick with it. Blindsiding them with, "Oh by the way, yeah, you haven't been here long enough, so when we said even footing... yeah, that was a lie," when the new Madden releases is not a great loyalty-building strategy.

    So, you are probably thinking, let's just go full Oprah give everyone a legacy player. If they played a single snap of a single down of M16, they get a legacy player. Then it's not really much of a differentiator, is it? Every team gets one, when the first several teams leave (and how many guys left despite legacy players in S1 of M17? I don't know the # but it was between "some" and "a lot"), the replacement owners now have a legacy player on their team. Purpose defeated. At the end of the day, the reason people want legacy players is not because it keeps owners around. They want legacy players because they drafted a stud and they want to keep him. It's an entirely selfish thing which doesn't otherwise help the league, so let's call it like it is and not beat around the bush.


    Really it all just boils down to one reason, though:

    8) Because it's the right fucking thing to do.
     
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  15. akutozo

    akutozo Baby, I'm a Brown.

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    My thoughts organized in pros and cons

    Cons:

    • Players who otherwise would never be traded were traded by their teams because they started off with a young, powerful prospect leading to the shuffling of more players than usual.
    • Some new players felt as if they were at a disadvantage because older, seasoned players had great legacy players.
    • Madden draft philosophy for player ratings may shift from Madden to Madden, resulting in freakishly talented players.
    Pros:
    • Seasoned vets were encouraged to stick through M15, resulting in the league being more likely to stay together.
    • The players themselves allowed the owners the flexibility to jump start molding their team in their image.
    • The actual imbalance concerns were minimal at best, given many similarities between both Maddens.

    Things to consider:
    • Legacy players have 0 consistency, making them the hardest to develop players in the game.
    • They are unable to retain their development traits, reinforcing that.
    • Legacy Players often never lead the league in their respective positions, making their concerns about causing an imbalance among the teams a minimal impact at best.
    • Beau Spriggs (82 OVR QB), Alexander Broussard (89 OVR QB), Dominique Arrington (85 OVR WR), Elliot Owens (88 OVR WR), Steele Bishop (91 OVR CB), Abdulai Adenji (88 OVR CB), JamIchael McElroy (91 OVR MLB) continue the trend of Legacy Players once "brought over" being a decent to above average starter with a shot to be a star if they consistently meet season goals.

    Bottom Line:

    I am for Legacy Players because they are a part of our league for generations, but I can take them or leave them and won't strongly fight either way. I think some concerns are overplayed, however, and people should realize that a small handful of players won't break Madden.

    Edit: That being said RFF made some very good points while I was writing this post that you should fully read. He presents possibly the best argument against bringing them over, and if that's the decision i could get behind it.
     
  16. RFF

    RFF Walk On

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    Just throwing this out there--

    Here's who received a legacy player coming into M16. I've bolded the ones who quit: 12 of the 21 guys, many within the first season. There is not a single shred of evidence to believe teams are less likely to quit because of the legacy player system. I see this "fact" thrown around like it's Fox news.

    Keller
    Hordan54
    greatnessdc
    McStrauss
    Freakskull
    hskr8128
    akutozo
    gridironguru614
    Hurricane GL
    arlennnn
    Automatik
    Troy J.
    BigK44
    Coachmedicis
    Mozaaik
    DadiBlanki
    johngalt10
    RaiderRed
    RyanRain39
    Sir Felgar
    RaunchyTacoBowl
     
  17. RaiderRed90

    RaiderRed90 Rage Fiend

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    Raunchy did not bring a legacy player over
    Sir felgar left due to where he moved to and a lack of decent internet.
    HurricaneGL was booted
    Same with grid iron guru.

    Mozaaik has returned.

    It's easy to cherry pick to prove a point.

    As I recall you received a legacy player that wasn't even your own.

    This was supposed to be a fun way of rewarding players and an incentive to stick around. I'm sorry you have such a huge issue with the idea.
     
  18. RFF

    RFF Walk On

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    Yes, all of that proves my point exactly. There are many reasons why people leave the league, legacy players just aren't one of them.
     
  19. RaiderRed90

    RaiderRed90 Rage Fiend

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    I'm sorry what? One of your points was legacy players will alienate new players?
     
  20. RyanRain39

    RyanRain39 Walk On

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    If I didn't have Elliot Owens, I prolly would have quit S1.
     
  21. RFF

    RFF Walk On

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    Yes, there's no evidence suggesting teams are more likely to stay because of legacy players. (Edit: Ryan has since offered up that Elliot Owens is the reason he's in HAW).

    RyanRain39 : do you mean you would have left had you not received Owens but other teams got theirs, or you mean had HAW not done legacy players at all, you would have quit to join another sim league that enabled you to create Elliot Owens?
     
  22. RaiderRed90

    RaiderRed90 Rage Fiend

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    You said, "Thereare many reasons why people leave the league, legacy players just aren't one of them."

    So you're saying people don't leave the league due to legacy player while at the same time they alienate people? Maybe I'm misunderstanding here.
     
  23. RaiderRed90

    RaiderRed90 Rage Fiend

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    I think the problem here is this is supposed to be fun. We are a sim league, but at what point do we compromise players fun for the sake of sim? You can toss that word around to prove your point however you'd like. But frankly if being sim is to be held higher than having fun why the fuck am I here?
     
  24. RyanRain39

    RyanRain39 Walk On

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    I mean that since I had Owens, the Rams were a bearable operation. I was not given my top 3 teams. My only offensive weapon was Todd Gurley and Jared Cook. I may be a special case in this given the circumstances. Owens was not the roided up beast a lot of people brought over, but on par with rookies of Madden 16.
     
  25. RFF

    RFF Walk On

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    I've said my peace and am not going to argue. If CFMs sans legacy players aren't fun for you, then yes you are correct, you should be in favor of legacy players. It's clear the decision has been made, in any case. I was just being a good sport and outlining my reasoning so no one can say I sat by quietly. I think most of the league will want legacy players because that means they get a legacy player. No one votes against their own pay raise.
     

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