As for my post, I believe that the foundation is already in Madden to accommodate these changes - now it would obviously would require someone with more knowledge of programming (like yourself) to say if those changes are feasible for the limited development cycle that EA sports has. With that, I feel like EA would further address two of the biggest complaints - the OL/DL interaction and the WR/CB interaction. Now I realize a majority of those problems cannot be corrected with the current programming foundation in place, but it would certainly give them a nice jumping off point for the next generation of consoles.
I still have no idea what that has to do with the OP, which was "what do you think is possible to get done in one cycle".
Well it answers what I think is possible to get done in one cycle. Obviously Madden 12 to 13 was a huge improvement, and I don't see why we couldn't see another improvement like that. Now if someone with a programming background like yourself doesn't think that's possible - then I kind of assumed that was the point of this thread: you attempting to temper expectations by explaining that what many fans think is possible in a single development cycle; simply isn't.
You should never assume you understand my motivations unless I tell you what they are. The point of this thread is I am curious about what people feel is possible.
That's an interesting question. I would think our team could address player movement, adding more animations, player variation, player interactions/inadvertent collisions (OL/DL, WR/DB RB/OL), pass blocking, blocking AI, adaptive AI, route based passing, custom gameplay camera options, ability to disable/limit some presnap options (hot routing, no huddle playalling, reblitzing, etc), more accurate ratings, mass substitutions, pregame formation subs, working penalties, defensive assignments, coach and personnel based playcalling AI, improved tackling and that's just off the top of my head because I believe even more could be accomplished. Now at first glance that seems like I very naive wishlist but not in the context of many of these work together and my belief that, like Rev referred to, much of this is already possible within the current framework of the game. I don't want to type a mini-novel so I will try to keep it brief. In M10 there was allegedly some new locomotion tech put in based on FIFA's Railtracks which produced more weighted movement in M10/NCAA 11 so it seems that system could be tuned in one cycle. Addressing player movement has an instance domino effect at every aspect of gameplay. More animations should be added every year and especially in M14 to fully take advantage of the Infinity engine. Of course more animations then account for improved player interactions/collisions, tackling, pass blocking, working penalties and player differential, which is linked to more accurate ratings. The coach/personnel playcalling AI would presumably be utilizing Gameplanning which already exists in-game intertwining it with the schemes and player types system in CCM. The custom camera options doesn't seem like a huge undertaking considering a multitude of camera options already exist for saving highlights and in-game replay, nor does having a UI to disable/limit presnap optins. Pregame formation subs, defensive assignments and mass substitutions have all been in Madden before so I don't see that as being too difficult to add in one year. So that leaves blocking AI and adaptive AI as the major undertakings for one cycle, which seems like a reasonable task, imo. Now due to my ignorance of programming and how a dev cycle for Madden works, I could be completely off base. However, it seems to me this is the formula that sports sims like The Show and NBA2k utilize, where it's not just a collage of individual features and upgrades mashed together but they try to marry as many things as possible together. That's what I am getting at with this post, that if I were on the team for creating Madden, I would want as many things as possible that we add to compliment each other, which should make them easier to implement without worrying abut breaking something else and more effective which could allow us to add even more.
Try to speak on a couple things real fast. 1) Gameplanning exists in game? Not sure I've seen what you mean. 2) Custom cameras have historically been an issue because of synch online, so I understand. As for the rest, complimentary features doesn't necessarily reduce the complexity of implementation.
1) Yes from what I understand. It was originally introduced with Gameflow and allowed each team to have designated plays called in various situations using a "starred" priority system. I think that's still in-game to determine Gameflow, it's just been locked to User customization. I should have been more clear because considering you deal more with NCAA, I can understand the confusion. Gameplanning in Madden and NCAA are two different things. 2) We have discussed this briefly before on OS and I still don't understand how that is a valid reason for the option to not be available. For offline of course sync isn't issue but even for online I don't understand why the Home team can't jut select the camera angle pregame and both players have to use it. Also, this speaks to the point I was making about other teams creating their games in such a way where something like camera options is not some huge undertaking versus in Madden. NBA2k allows both Users online to play from different camera options from each other yet in Madden it could cause sync issues. Again, I am no programmer but that seems to speak to poor design decisions and things not being implemented to work well together. Which addresses your last point because if Madden has to design one thing not to negatively effect another, after the fact, versus designing things open ended in the first place, that could cause more work and more complex implementation, trying to find a way to make things "fit".
I don't know that 2k5/2k8 have more animations, though it seems like it but I know they playout in a way that come across more organic, less repetitive and differentiates players better than Madden. In reference to that, this old video points out what I mean around the 4:00 mark until the 5:45 mark but the whole video was an interesting watch for me. I don't get the impression that the format for doing animations described by Visual Concepts in this video, is the same used by EA Tiburon for Madden and I think that's unfortunate.
LOL, what? Let me rephrase this position. I am not suggesting anyone be forced to play from the Home teams camera view, I am just saying make the camera option a "lock". So if playing online, it can be another option that players can set and play people with the same setting. It makes no sense that online sync issues prevent camera options from being available online period.
1) I'm working on Madden more this cycle. 2) I'm not sure why it's an issue, but apparently it is. That said, one thing EA does better than 2K for sure is online. If getting horrible lag is the trade off for custom camera, I'm not interested.
I had it explained to me like this: 2K had fewer interaction points but a large library of animations for each interaction. Madden has more interaction points, but few animations for each one. Some of the reason that Madden seems repetitive in the animation category is that they have less animations per event AND sometimes the whole spectrum for each interaction don't get placed into the pool to choose from. I have an interesting story to share once this cycle's NDA allows me to tell it. That aside, there is as much ugliness in that video as their is beauty. The one thing I really loved in that video was the tip drill at early in the 4:00-5:45 frame. One thing I hated was on the interception around 5:00, the defensive player pivots 180 degrees (pi if you are using radians, sorry math joke) without ANY foot movement.
The video is from NFL2k2 or 3, so I wasn't referring to the gameplay footage but to the articulated attention to detail along with the capability to easily redo mo cap in-house. Somebody, I think it was Emmdotfrisk, told me there weren't more animations in Madden because it's so expensive for Tiburon to mo cap or something like that. Also, Madden doesn't seem to have that same commitment to attention to detail the way animations playout. I get the impression that EA Tiburon goes out of there way to do things differently than other studios, regardless of it that way is better or not. I don't think making sports sims has to be as difficult as EA Tiburon makes it out to be, I think it's the way they choose to make them that makes it unnecessarily harder. I don't think anyone would argue that more animations per event in Madden would be a good thing yet EA Tiburon chooses to go their own way. When I look at Madden in comparison to other sports sims like The Show and NBA2k I think about that old saying “The most important thing to do if you find yourself in a hole is to stop digging.” Meaning trying to innovate design decisions for a sports sims or whatever is they have tried to do, has clearly put Madden behind other top sports sims, so I don't get why they continue trying to do it. This all ties into the thread because, again, I think it's the design decision made by Tiburon for Madden that doesn't allow the game to improve more from year to year. So I refuse to base my expectation on what's possible to accomplish in one dev cycle, on what Tiburon has been able to do.
I disagree. I think direction has been the problem in years past. To the point of your final sentence: Who has done more in a cycle than Tiburon did from 12 to 13? What game had more progression in one year? Just curious what you think.
I think that question presupposes that I feel M12 to M13 was substantial progress but I don't. Maybe the difference of opinion comes from you compare one Madden to another to determine progress where as I compare Madden to other games like NBA2k and The Show. Going by the former standard, M09 to M10 was substantial progress but the end result was still an inferior sports sim. I care most about can I enjoy the game in spite of it's unavoidable flaws and the answer for M12 and M13 is no. I was able to enjoy and give the series the benefit of the doubt from M06-M08 or 09 but once next-gen Madden had fell so far behind other sports sims, i just couldn't do it anymore. To me the key to all those things I listed I believe could be implemented in one cycle is that they function properly and emulate real life as well as possible. Just having them there as some cosmetic feature list to tout how one version is different than another and not helping Madden be a better football sim as good as other top sports sims, still wouldn't be progress to me.
Say I concede for the sake of argument that M12->M13 wasn't a substantial progress...you still didn't answer my question. FIFA is good, right? When did it "get good".
lol, ok. Well I would say that every sports sim game predecessor I have been able to enjoy this console gen has done more in one cycle and progressed further than M13 from M12. The reason being, like I stated earlier, it's about enjoyment for me so if I didn't enjoy M12 nor M13, which I didn't, that's not much progress for one edition to the next. Also I have only played FIFA briefly, seen many videos of it though. For me it's about being able to enjoy a game first, then off that foundation I look forward to seeing the game continue to at least maintain but hopefully increase my enjoyment/immersion. For example, I don't really think about how big a jump NFL2k5 was from NFL2k4 because I enjoyed them both but NFL2k5 did increase my enjoyment/immersion from NFL2k4. I hope that answers your question.
I have played various editions of NBA2k, most recently NBA2k11-13 and I think all of those have done more in one cycle and progressed further than M13 from M12, again because I could enjoy all three.
So now we've established a game you are intimate with. What did 2K do from 11->12 and then 12->13 that you thought was fantastic?
