Great thread Shaun, lots of good insight in here. The challenges we face are finding the balance. Improving last years title but also adding just the right amount of new features, modes, and mechanics so that the consumer doesn't feel like we repackaged the same game. Keep the thoughts coming. Thanks guys
I think NBA2k's presentation is fantastic and I believe it got better in NBA2k12 and went a slightly different route in NBA2k13 but still a solid core. That's my overall impression of NBA2k11-13 is they all did a solid job of representing NBA basketball.
Thanks Emmdot. I always think its interesting trying to gauge people's perception of what's possible.
Part of my perception about what's possible in one dev cycle with regard to Madden comes from the whatever info I find about what tech they implement and what it seems to be able to accomplish. For example, my perception that player movement can be addressed in one dev cycle without a huge undertaking stems from this M11 blog about a new locomotion tech they added to the game that year. I have been asking Is Madden "Rail Tracks" still in M13 and if so why can't it be tuned to prevent swerving/zig-zag running? since sometime last year for clarification but have not been able to get it. http://www.operationsports.com/ncaa/utopia/topic/69752-madden-nfl-11-locomotion/
I know the answer, but per usual, my comments are covered by NDA. Here's my question: Did that technology work in M11?
That's what I am asking you, lol. From reading the blog it seems it's possible that it's functional but that maybe they "tuned" it to allow for easier movement for "fun" factor. So I keep asking can it be "tuned" for realism or adjustments made to player agility ratings. This post I made on OS might better articulate what I am talking about. http://www.operationsports.com/foru...nting-better-m10-then-m13.html#post2044742779 About the NDA, is it different for GCers than it is CE/CD attendees? The reason I ask is because Justin Dewiel stated this about the NDA for CD. "...Of course, each guy who comes in is required to sign a NDA, but he has 100% freedom to say what he wants after we make our reveal. Love it or hate it, each guy can speak freely...." http://www.operationsports.com/foru...vent-1-feedback-wanted-20.html#post2043355244
The biggest thing I'd like to see Madden focus on is more strategy, flexibility, and intuitiveness from a playbook and personnel deployment standpoint. I'd like to see playbooks and depth charts completely redone from a functionality and usability standpoint; introduce personnel-formation-routes playcalling for offense (i.e. to call Ace - Normal Levels, I'd call: 1 RB 2 TE personnel, single back formation, Levels; I could call the same formation and play with 1 RB 1 TE personnel, however), personnel-stunt-coverage playcalling for defense (ex. 4-2-5 front, choose line stunt, choose coverage; basically how NFL 2K did defensive playcalling). Allow for the creation of custom personnel packages on both offense and defense (even to extremes such as a 1 RB 4 TE package; let me have control over how I deploy my personnel and play the game). For depth charts, allow the assignment of more specific football positions - split end, flanker, slot receiver, nose tackle, nickel back, 3-4 inside linebackers, kick coverage units, etc. etc. Next on the priority list for me would be putting more emphasis on the pre-snap chess match. I'd like to see hot routes and audibles at the line of scrimmage take more time to call at the line of scrimmage to slow down the pace of the gameplay and put more emphasis on the presnap chess match, and I'd be interested to have an option (at minimum) to completely disable pre-play adjustments until the offense is at the line of scrimmage. Particularly as the visiting team, the QB should have to step away from center to call an audible to his teammates; it should not be instantaneous. I want to get rid of the "call 80 million hot routes" style of gameplay, the user should be rewarded more often for good playcalling. Perhaps even tie the speed of hot routes and audibles to a QB's AWR rating, so smarter and more experienced QBs would be "more in-control of the game". On the defensive side, I'd like to see more presnap ability to disguise coverages. Let me call a Cover 3 but show two high safeties pre-snap, similar to the coverage shell feature of APF 2K8. Let me manually and easily feign a variety of blitz looks from the second level of my defense, rather than having the game choose how aggressively I align pre-snap or only including all-or-nothing options such as "Show Blitz". My third priority, and top actual during-gameplay priority, would be modernizing interactions of receivers and defensive backs downfield, particularly to the end of prominent penalties such as defensive holding, defensive pass interference, and offensive pass interference. This is the one area where the gameplay is furthest behind IMO, and particularly compared to other sports games' ability to simulate infractions. Pass interference rules are an important part of what we see on Sundays, and they are not represented in Madden properly at this time. Some less drastic changes I'd like to see which I would prioritize lower than those top three (i.e. if time became a factor, these improvements would be the first to hit the chopping block): I'd like to see lead passing tweaked a bit; the "throw a receiver open" control mechanic (though I enjoy the hell out of it) is possibly a bit too powerful, since it can be triggered at any time. I would tie triggering the mechanic to a timing window on the receiver's route break (that is, I shouldn't be able to dramatically change a receiver's route if he's not about to make a cut). The WR's RRT and AWR ratings should impact how well he "sees" the throw to a new destination. A receiver with low AWR / RRT, for example, should have a chance to not see that the QB was attempting to throw him open, resulting in a thrown ball going nowhere near said receiver. Ideally, users would have the most success with this mechanic when playing as a high-AWR high-accuracy QB throwing to a high-AWR high-RRT receiver - ex. Tony Romo to Jason Witten. I'd like to see the Infinity Engine tightened up a bit. Clean up the post-play weirdness and continue to tune the gameplay interactions, particularly with regard to an RB colliding with his own blocker. Cleaning up post-play weirdness would be a low-priority issue for me, however. I'd like to see zone coverage AI tightened up; it's too easy to attack right now, compared to man coverage. I'd like to see line play continue to iteratively evolve, hopefully minimizing the issue where the LE / 3-4 LOLB is more likely to sack the QB than a RE / 3-4 ROLB. I'd like to see the AWR rating impact user QB performance; in an online league I play in, one user had success with Jacory Harris as his QB1 to the tune of a playoff berth, even with an adjusted user QB Accuracy slider. This shouldn't be possible. I'd like to see the QB DPP traits impact user QBs more in some manner; having success with a more panicky quarterback such as Mark Sanchez should require a clean pocket, and if he's getting battered, his accuracy should decrease and the amount of time it takes for him to call audibles should increase; i.e. he gets "rattled". Get the game to a point where a user might actually have to burn a timeout just to avoid a delay of game penalty, and not just because he took too long to pick a play.
Sorry, I misread your question as a reference to Madden 25. Is "RailTracks" still in M13? Yes, a version of it. As far as I am aware. Can it be tuned? Certainly, anything can be tuned. It hasn't been though. --- I've been reading your posts on Operation Sports and since we are on the topic here, I want to address this with you personally. First, I don't owe you or anyone else anything. Second, what exactly do you want to know? To start Do I think Madden 13 is perfect? Far from it. Do I hate aspects of Madden 13? Certainly. Does that mean I need to waste my time posting on OS, or here, or anywhere else about the things I hate? To what end? To get "street" cred? I have all the street cred I need. Ask anyone on this site and they'll tell you I'm pretty much a critical asshole (right Kasper?). I'm in the fortunate position that I know what's going on at Tiburon. When I have something I hate, I can put together a presentation and send it to the appropriate designer. When I find a bug, I can go right into the studio, duplicate it and create a bug report. It's a waste of my time to go cry about it on the interwebz. Continued Is Madden 13 the best Madden in a while? Yes (2005 was better excluding online) Is Madden 13 better than 2K5? In my opinion as a whole, yes. Are there elements that 2K5 does better? Yes Do I think EA SPORTS intends to put out a authentic football sim? For the most part. Do I think EA SPORTS is capable of doing that? Everything I've seen says yes. Things I hate (and was/am vocal about) Player movement The fucking swerve The lack of penalties The lack of receiver/defensive back interaction Everything about blocking The fact mass is unimportant Lack of defense The fact that I have to cripple users to get realistic yard per play averages. That's just to start. I can literally fill a notebook with stuff I want changed. Finally Every feature, tune, etc. this cycle has been influenced by a Game Changer. It's thankless work for the most part (outside of TSO, where people are pretty good to me). That doesn't mean that everything we want happens, or will happen. We have an incredible opportunity (and we know that) and we are doing our best. If you think you can do better: http://www.easports.com/gamechangers/promo/about-gamechangers If you want to come down to Tiburon for yourself, you don't have to be a Game Changer to come to an event, you just have to be willing to sign an NDA. I'll be the first to try to make that happen. Why? Because I want to see you take your own shit on OS. All kidding aside, I think it would really open your eyes.
Finally, some effing passion and emotion from a GCer about a hobby/vice I am passionate about, not some measured response to spare anyone's irrational hurt feelings, lol. I know no GCer or any other random person on the internet "owes" me anything but I don't find it necessary to state something that should be a given in every post. Also I have stated in the past that I don't believe I could do a better job than any other GCer with respect to improving the game or interacting with Tiburon but that I do believe I would have thicker skin and more empathy towards the reasonably frustrated faction of the NFL gaming community, under the circumstances. Those circumstances being that Madden is the only current NFL game, Tiburon repeatedly keeps claiming Madden is intended to be an authentic NFL simulation and that unlike GCers, those factions aren't able to directly interact with Tiburon. In regard to the M11 loco tech have you or anyone else that you know of, asked the devs about why hasn't this been tuned for more realistic movement and/or why there can't be some slider/method made available to Users to adjust loco for ourselves? Also in case the answer to the second part of my question is that Users could break the game being allowed to tamper directly with the loco tech, why not a slider to tamper down AGL(agility) universally? In reference to CE, I am not interested in going down to Tiburon alone but If the only prerequisite truly is signing a NDA, I would be interested in organizing a group trip for as many different frustrated Madden gamers as possible to accompany me to a CE so we can all see the sausage being made.
I have to be a complete idiot not go to an event being that its literally 20 minutes from where I live. Do you know where I could find information on attending?
Everyone has their own tolerance for things. Personally, I'm fine with people flaming Madden and calling it the devil because they want 2K to make a game. It's an irrelevant argument to me so I can move past it. I do not have a thick skin for people treating me poorly. I don't like when people try to put words in my mouth. I do not like when people try to lead me with loaded questions, and I more than anything do not like when people question my authenticity or my honesty. I guarantee you that I am far more authentic and honest online than the vast majority of people. Don't believe me? Read this ->The Diet and Exercise Section Do I wish there were competition? Yes. What is the harm? I'll play whatever is good. Does it make sense to demonize EA SPORTS over a mutually agreed business contract? No As far as "those factions aren't able to directly interact with Tiburon"...what do you expect? Emmdotfrisk to come hang out with you and chat? They are busy people. Any interaction they choose to do is voluntary. I work for Honda, I write software there. If there is a problem with that software, do you think I go to Honda forums and chit chat? No. I have no idea where this elitist "everyone owes me an answer" culture comes from. Emmdot is FROM this site. He worked on it for 3 years. Even the people here don't EXPECT him to come over and answer questions. They have RynoAid, Drifterbub, HackGolfer, Iron Mickey and myself that will answer anything we can. That goes for you or anyone at OS. Want to know something? Ask. We will tell you as much as we can. Just don't be a douche. (My golden rule since you are new here). You'll have to do it here since I got banned at OS. Why hasn't player movement updated? Of course we've asked that question. That's almost insulting. Simple answer, it was prioritized lower than other items. Would I have done the prioritization differently? You bet your ass I would have. As far as sliders or tuning; I'm not sure there is ever going to be a "locomotion" slider. In my opinion, physics are physics. There is only one valid solution for conservation of mass and momentum, and I think once the solution is found as far as Madden and player movement is found there isn't going to be a need for the end user to "tune" it. I'm not suggesting I can / want to get a group approved. My purpose isn't to do the job of the community managers. I however am capable of putting a bug in the ear of those guys if I think someone would be a benefit to have down there. They could easily say no. If I didn't see value in you going down and interacting I wouldn't suggest it. jpdavis82 has been asking forever and I can't say I see the value there. I like critical people. There are a couple guys over there I would like to see go (CM Hooe, RyanMoody21, KBLover, SageInfinite, etc) but I'm not the gatekeeper. It wasn't an invitation to a OS circlejerk.
It isn't an open process Anthony. Before anyone else jumps in here, the reason I suggested it to Big_FN_Deal is that he is someone I consider hyper critical over at Operation Sports, yet he actually has the ability to communicate well. I honest to God think it would be a eye opening experience to see "behind the curtain" so to speak and he would have the ability to go back and educate the user base over there on how things work. In short, I love you antcap24, but I wasn't opening auditions.
I totally understand. Im just so grateful to be amongst the amount of GCers that we have here because of the passion you all show for the game. Just being able to have an avenue to get ideas of your chest to someone who has the possibility to relay information is more than enough to keep me happy.
Now your just kissing my ass. I kid, I kid. I just don't want to open the floodgate of people thinking I'm a free pass to EA. There is no precedence for that, I'm just saying I would try in his case for my own motivations.
Have you even read these forums? Perhaps you need to look at Shaun and myself's post history. We have explained a lot here and are extremely passionate about making the game better. And not just 'better' in the sense of selling more copies, we are both very driven by gameplay and online league functionality. I promise you this - no one is going to be more direct than Shaun or myself.
I must say while I enjoy and appreciate your straightforward approach, I hope you do realize that I am being the same way with you. I don't have any hidden agenda or call myself asking "leading questions", I just want to get whatever info I can on why Madden isn't the game Tiburon keeps claiming they want it to be. In reference to 2k, I personally couldn't care less if Duncan Hines were the one making a NFL game as long as it was as good a representation of the sport as other top sport sims. Also, again I don't have any lofty expectations of random people on the internet, which all GCers are in relation to me and me to them. What I am wanting is that whenever they or anyone else that has had the opportunity to directly engage devs, happen to interact with the community, that they be as forthright as possible. Note that I stated "wanting" not "expecting" or "demanding" because, to state the obvious, anyone can of course say or do whatever they want, which is exactly what I am doing. I really don't see what was insulting about that loco question, especially since I didn't ask you about asking why wasn't it updated in general but specifically did anyone ask why wasn't the existing tech tuned in a different manner or some UI provided to allow for manual adjustments to locomotion. Considering you still didn't answer that question I guess you haven't ask that specific question which is no big deal. I wasn't trying to imply I thought you were the "decider" for CE, I thought you might have been suggesting that CE was more "open house" circle jerk than I thought and that all it took to get in was signing a NDA. lol
My meaning behind the "that's almost insulting is this". I'm an intelligent guy. I want a simulation probably more than you do. The player movement is a combination of those little bugs that skitter over the top of water and old men with sticks up their ass. You really think I've spent months of my life at EA SPORTS and haven't asked why it's awful?
The same reason I'm not what I claim to want to be (rich and sexy mainly, I've got awesome and funny down), I'm not there yet. Seriously though, the designers and developers down there live, eat, breath and crap NCAA/Madden. If you think for a second they can't rattle off their failures and regrets in a heartbeat you're wrong. The direction that "we want to be an NFL simulation" wasn't there historically in my opinion. It is now, for the most part. Are they guilty of trying to make mechanics "fun" in the past? Yes, and they will tell you that. The direction has changed. I wouldn't be putting my name behind it if I didn't believe that. In before "Hype Train"
I have just recently joined TSO and before that only skimmed through some past threads but I am not implying that Mason or any other GCer for that matter isn't critical of Madden's faults. My issue is that public discussions about Madden's developmental cons from those that have the opportunity to directly interact with Tiburon, ie GCers, CE attendees, etc, seem to be far more measured and less forthright than discussions about Madden's developmental pros. For example if I am praising Madden for its' graphics or lack of lag in online play and ask about how is that possible or accomplished, there doesn't seem to be much concern of being too forthright. However, if I ask about why is there still no arm extension animation to prevent ball carriers from running up the backs of blockers, that is a much less forthright discussion with talk of NDAs and these things take time. I understand it's human nature to not want to publicly offend people you have been personable with, I am just pointing out that I believe that sometimes gets in the way of GCers expressing a more visceral POV about the faults surrounding the development of Madden. That said, again I haven't done a thorough review of GCers interactions on TSO, so maybe there are discussion s where Mason or some other GCer, publicly ripped someone at Tiburon a new one for not being committed to realism, lol.
So your perception is that because we cannot come out and openly talk about something that we are protecting "the people we are personable with" at EA? How does this make sense? Perhaps we aren't talking about it because we cannot legally do so. It depends on how you ask it. Per your own example, if you were to say, "Why is there still no arm extension animation to prevent ball carriers from running into the back of blockers." My response would be: "Because it was likely a scenario that they could not get to such a feature given the first year implementation of the new physics engine. They jammed as much of that sort of stuff in this cycle as possible. With that being said, I agree with you that it looks terrible and completely ruins the running game for me in Madden. It looks arcade-y at best." If you were to say, "Is there going to be arm extension animations to prevent ball carriers from running into the back of blockers in Madden 14?" My response would be: "I cannot talk about that."
