National Champions

Discussion in 'Thread Archive' started by Michael Woodward, Aug 7, 2012.

  1. Michael Woodward

    Michael Woodward Walk On

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    Again, please do not post on this page. Post on the general discussion page to discuss. Congrats Abominatrix
     
  2. Michael Woodward

    Michael Woodward Walk On

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    2013 Virginia 14-0
    2014 Notre Dame 13-0
    2015 Kansas 13-0
    2016 14-0
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2012
  3. derek

    derek Walk On

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    Another congrats to Abom for beating my Buckeyes. I started off fairly well but after getting out-routed to death and being unable to stop the vertical I just could figure out how to stop the offense. On one vertical my cb was in some strange crouch position with his hands in some sort of hug position looking back all while running down the field chasing his receiver. Very strange.

    I think when it comes down to it the zone defense is to easy to beat and if your guys cannot play man very well then you get out routed to death. I know my dline never gets pressure with just a 4 man rush so I feel like Im forced to blitz. Then I just get beat deep or in some quick pass, out route, etc. Very frustrating but Im not sure what to do at this point. Oh well.
     
  4. Michael Woodward

    Michael Woodward Walk On

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    This made me laugh out loud.
     
  5. Abominatrix

    Abominatrix Walk On

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    IMO, learn to love zone. The vast majority of my user-game picks come from zone defense. As you said, unless your CBs are war daddies, you can't use man as a base defense. I had one of the most athletic (SPD, AGI, ACC) defensive backfields I've ever coached (all but one return next year, too) and I still protected them from 1-on-1s most of the time. Also - at least against me - man blitzing is one of the worst defenses to call. I'll always have at least one guy on a man-defeating route, and if he happens to be athletic (Brewer, Brown on the one deep catch he had), then you've just given up a big play, and likely a touchdown. Zone naturally forces players to nickel and dime you down the field, and the more plays they run, the more likely they are to make a mistake. Zone in the red zone is even harder to read. Once you get comfortable with the basic zones (Cover 2/3/4) and what they cover well, you can start mixing in zone blitzes and exotic zones when you notice your opponent targeting certain areas of the field.

    Yes, sometimes your zones will just get beat. In my 2nd highlight of the BCSNC, you had a slant open near the hash that my MLB (#36) should've been covering, cuz he didn't have anyone else to watch. At times, WRs have been ridiculously wide open because their playcall beat my zone schematically. But zone harshly punishes people who make mistakes. By design, all the eyes are on the QB, so 90% of bad decisions end in picks (or dropped picks, FML). It really shines when someone is behind and HAS to throw. A lot of players get really impatient when they're behind, so they only attack intermediate/deep parts of the field. Once I've locked into a tendency, I can call zone blitzes at my leisure, because I know the areas of the field that the opponent will attack. I just send the flat/extra hook+curl defenders to go hurry the QB. And because I know the exotic zones that REALLY confuse people, I can usually make someone pay at least once.

    For example, when I last played QB, he started to throw the quick fade (when the outside WR is on a streak, and you just gun it to him around 7 yards out, usually leading the pass outside) with regularity. Yea, they were annoying (I was mostly in Cover 2 that game), but it was simply a 10-yard gain, worst case. Then, later on in the game, I called one of my FAVORITE plays. I forget the exact name, CB Dogs Zone maybe, but it's out of 4-3 Even, and it sends both corners and both ends to the QB, but has your OLBs drop to buzz zones (pink). The Mike drops to a deep third in the middle, and the DTs both get hook/curl underneath him. Safeties have the outside deep thirds. I'm pretty sure he saw the corner blitzing and the safety playing deep, so the outside SHOULD be open. However, the OLB dropped right underneath the pass and took it back deep into his territory. Called it once, got the pick, tucked it back into the playbook and forced QB to think about it for the rest of the game.

    The power of zone isn't in shutting down a passing offense, its in forcing the other players to make mistakes. You may have noticed that most every user game I play has wonderful passing yardage for the other QB - and an assload of picks. Just this year:

    FAU: 255 yards, 5 INTs
    LSU: 337 yards, 7 INTs
    UMass: 196 yards, 2 INTs (the outlier - I'll get to this later)
    Ohio: 342 yards, 4 INTs

    So I don't care if you make it past the 50 every drive. You still have to score, and you'll seldom do it with the aide of a long TD play. And what makes it all work? Stop the run. areohhwhy has a nasty ability to run on me, regardless of the talent difference. Not throwing as much -> making less mistakes -> limiting my possessions -> staying in the game longer. Then I need my linebacker to return a fumbled punt for a 71 yard TD to get any separation :p
     
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  6. derek

    derek Walk On

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    Nice analysis.

    My problems with zone are:

    1. if the qb has time somebody gets open eventually and I have had trouble (even in my other od where I have a stacked Alabama team) getting pressure with just a 4 man rush. I almost feel it is necessary to blitz just to get pressure.

    2. When the backers drop into zone they almost always drop deep enough to where a crossing TE will have an immediate 4-5 yard gain

    3. Zone is always susceptible to pa at least more than man defense is.

    I would love to play more zone just to change things up but I just have the hardest time doing any damage with it. Defenders seem to stray away from nearby receivers and leave guys wide open.

    I am not very familiar with what zones are supposed to cover what types of plays. Ive run cover three or cloud zone or other 3 deep formations and somehow a receiver gets open deep. I don't quite understand the responsibilities I guess. I always figure with man a guy is assigned to a guy and if you blitz along with that the qb has little time. I have been recruiting man coverage cb's strictly for my Alabama team and they seem to stick with their assignment. At least a lot better than this Buckeye team. That out-route just killed that cb every time.

    I don't know, I will work more on the zone to try and learn what it does. I have used the 3-4 with Bama which seems effective at times but not always. I think I am impatient and want to play aggressive at all times. idk.
     
  7. Michael Woodward

    Michael Woodward Walk On

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    As with real life. In zone, the players are looking in the backfield so they see the PA and it freezes them. In man, they're looking at the receiver that their responsible for so the only one who even notices its a PA is the man responsible for covering the RB.
     
  8. derek

    derek Walk On

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    exactly.
     
  9. Abominatrix

    Abominatrix Walk On

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    1) Just have to roll with the punches on this one. I'm sure my zones would be more effective if I user'd a defensive lineman, but I hate doing that. If you can consistently force 3rd and long, then you're free to zone blitz and you'll still have good coverage around the 1st down marker.

    2) Depends on the playcall. A lot of the Cover 2 plays have the middle zone defender drop a little deeper than the rest, by design. However, there are some plays that make the backers stay closer to the LOS: Cover 2 out of Nickel Normal has the deep MLB, but Cover 2 out of Nickel Strong has him at the same depth as the other 2 hook/curls. Also, QB spies in conjunction with deep middle zones can take that away. At least the immediate part of it. You can also user the MLB, but I usually F that up anyway.

    And zone will usually have someone open for a quick gain on every play. It's up to you to confuse the enemy QB long enough for them to miss it. If someone is consistently throwing a slant as their first read, you can call the right zone to take it away. Someone else will be open temporarily, but they may come to that player too late, and a throw even half a second too late can be costly against zone. That same TE crossing may have reached the flat zone on the other side of the formation - then that throw will either lead to the flat defender dancing in the endzone or over the corpse of your TE cuz he got lit up.

    If you want to see an example of this, look up Highlight #2 from my season opener against FAU last year. The guy he ends up throwing to is wide the F open if he just throws it half a second earlier.

    And the best part is...if everything goes right for the QB, he got 5 yards. Whatever.

    3. Yup. That's why you need to stop the run! If you pass commit in zone, everyone will just execute their zone drop, and the PA will just be a waste of time.

    In the end, we've all seen man. Man is man is man. We all have our plays to beat man. You can't just "beat" zone, though.
     
  10. derek

    derek Walk On

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    You obviously are a better player than I am so Id be stubborn not to take this into consideration. Im just not very familiar with the different zones. its seems like it would be obvious how each zone works but when I see a receiver get behind 3 deep I scratch my head. I am going to work on this though.
    In defense of man you really have to have guys who are high in the man attribute. I have recruited guys with high man attributes ( not to mention speed and acceleration) in my other od and they stick to their man. They undercut out routes and can't be beat on verticals unless I press and they beat it off the line.
    That being said I would love to use more zone just to throw as much at a person as possible. I just don't trust it in the long run. Im going to have to do something different against you though. lol
     
  11. Abominatrix

    Abominatrix Walk On

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    On that note, I can play any evening, 7-10:30pm EST, so whatever works best for you. On the man note - I do understand the value of a good CB, but all out routes aren't made the same. If you play off-man or under against an elite receiver in terms of agility and route running, you will not cover it. I've had some elite athletes at corner, and none of them could do it. If you can show me a corner that can undercut an elite receiver's out route (without gameplanning on aggressive) - then I can show you a pick 6 :p
     
  12. derek

    derek Walk On

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    I have a bday party to be at 6p cst but Ill be back around 730-8. Ill look for you then
     
  13. areohhwhy

    areohhwhy Walk On

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    Just another part to add in if i may do.. It's more than just a man versus zone debate, it's what your other players are doing as well. For instance, I rarely play man coverage with two safeties over the top because I rarely generate any pressure with 3 or 4 down lineman (Plus MAC quarterbacks have no chill when it comes to scrambling.. bastards..) After about 2 seconds I know 8 times out of 10 my man coverage is going to break down, so I always bring some sort of pressure to at least rush the quarterback into getting the ball out of his hands quickly.

    But i predominately use zone because it makes things tougher for the offense. I like having 3 people back deep to keep everything in-front of me, Some call it a bend but don't break type defense, but I tend to let the short passes go and just try and prevent big plays, eventually users and CPU's get impatient and try and go for the home-run play and that's where they play into your hands, you have to force them into having to get big plays, then it's up to you how you want to attack them.
     
  14. CamInMyMind1350

    CamInMyMind1350 Walk On

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    Coaches Clinic FTW! ;)
     

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