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Discussion in 'Thread Archive' started by The Dude, Jan 12, 2012.

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  1. The Dude

    The Dude Professor of Dudanomics

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    Guys,

    Scored a douchy TD in my game today. Didn't mean to. I had the backups in, but I called a formation that had a formation sub in it, so the starter went in anyway. I ran, tried to get down, but got hit twice, both animations took me forward, and I scored with a second left.

    Scored 35 in the 4th. Sure, I was a bit ticked about Illinois breaking tackles everywhere, but for some reason, they forgot how to tackle, and I busted everything I ran. 40 yard read, 77 yard shotgun counter, long qb keeper on an option play - everything scored.

    This is stat whoring. Only difference is, I'm not defending it, or pretending like no one notices. But that last one was unintended, and I'd take it back if I could.
     
  2. The Dude

    The Dude Professor of Dudanomics

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    I saved the vid of that last one, but it bogged down, of course. I'll post a link.
     
  3. bdub

    bdub Walk On

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    I'm going to drop 90 on someone just to keep up with you guys.
     
  4. The Dude

    The Dude Professor of Dudanomics

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    Just don't lump me in with the weekly offenders. This is rare for me and, at least to some extent, I'm trying to make a point about gameplay around here. It's one thing to win a shootout - it's another to pile on. This is just kind of my way of saying that I'm tired of being one of the few guys taking a knee.

    I still didn't mean that last one, though ... and I still can't upload the highlight. Just froze for the second time.
     
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  5. Goose

    Goose Walk On

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    I was up 42-0 at halftime and spent the rest of the game driving to the 5, then kneeling it 4 straight plays with the play clock at 1 to keep from scoring anymore.
     
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  6. Loaf31

    Loaf31 Walk On

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    I just wish that I could play defense.... I hate the way that my season has gone. I don't care about the losing, I just hate that in order for me to even compete in games, I have to throw the ball around like crazy
     
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  7. The Dude

    The Dude Professor of Dudanomics

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    This indicates a couple of things:
    1. You're a good dude.
    2. We need some changes.
    Now, #2 makes me nervous, because we have guys struggling at the current settings, and guys blowing up the current settings. Hard to reign in one without frustrating the other. I'm not looking to drive anyone past the point where it's fun. But, it looks like some restraint in is order, cuz the Heisman list has looked pretty similar for several seasons now, and the same guys are taking all the awards every year. We need to find a balance, because the stats are not matching the skill level of the players - rather, they are matching play styles and how we choose to call a game.
    Now, keep in mind that shootouts are different. Necessary scoring is not an issue. Unnecessary scoring is.
     
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  8. bdub

    bdub Walk On

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    Biggest problem that I see with the sliders is that you have to call the game a certain way to succeed. However this might be because I am not very good at certain play styles.
     
  9. The Dude

    The Dude Professor of Dudanomics

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    I think this is more a Heisman thing than a slider thing, though. On Heisman, the default setting seems to be whatever defense best stops whatever play you called - then you audible out and get repetitive, or at least that's what happens to me sometimes.
     
  10. bdub

    bdub Walk On

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    Do we recruit on Heisman?
     
  11. The Dude

    The Dude Professor of Dudanomics

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    I think we recruit on AA
     
  12. bdub

    bdub Walk On

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    If so I think we should bump it to Heisman.
     
  13. Goose

    Goose Walk On

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    I thought we started on AA and bumped it to Heisman after the preseason.
     
  14. The Dude

    The Dude Professor of Dudanomics

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    I was hoping to spark a discussion about elevated stats and such, but we haven't quite got there yet, so here's a quick argument for you guys:

    Premise #1: Coaching Prestige is tied to wins, titles, awards won, and all-american players coached
    Premise #2: I need prestige, and there is no penalty for stat-whoring.
    Conclusion: Therefore, I will stat-whore, because it is in my best interest to do so, and because no one gives a shit.

    Now, if that doesn't get us talking, I don't know what to do.
     
  15. jca312

    jca312 Walk On

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    Be specific. Examples. Names.
     
  16. The Dude

    The Dude Professor of Dudanomics

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    Can't. I'm not talking specifics. We are talking about us - including me. I am in no way immune, and have stat whored on occasion in order to put myself in position to win one thing or another.

    Long story short - Guys who restrain their play are hindered by those who do not. For example, Goose had the Bucks for a few seasons. He did reasonably well with them. His prestige was a D when I took over. The reason for that is stats. If we win awards, and call games so our guys win awards, we get bumped. If we're up 42-0 and kneel/punt, we don't contend for those awards. It's just that simple. So a guy who could, simply by changing styles from sim to non-sim, take his D and make it a B, keeps his D, and instead of applaud him for it, we use that D to make sure he can't compete for players. When I took over OSU, I saw a pretty even spread of stats - no one dominated the ball.

    Sim has a downside. That's what I'm saying. We have guys who have scored over 50 a game for entire seasons - and no one says a word. Instead, we all start putting up 50+. Now we have fewer members, and I believe that is a direct result of the way we as a group play the game, more, much more perhaps, than the faults of the members who left.

    That's how it happens. The beginning of the end. Good guys leave because some of us (including myself) forget about the group in order to do more for ourselves. Whether it's who we will or will not make allowances for, what we will or will not do in a game, what we will do in order to win at all costs - as a group, I think we might be on the wrong side of all of these things.

    If we were smart, right now we would be levelling things off at the top, helping bishop and loaf get to a point where they can have success that is in line with the teams they have (which are both better that the records) and then moving up and making things tougher as a group. Oh, and we should make those changes known to those who would be interested in them. Last year, we had no repeat champions. I loved it. This year, we have only had repeat champions. I'm not sure that's a coincidence, and I think the guys who play this year like they did last year are having less success, so much so that I have seen exits I never thought would happen.

    This is just one guy's opinion, but I think we need to read the title of this forum and set things right. I can score 66 in a rivalry, but I only do it when I feel like I have to - and I don't like that feeling. On the upside, though, I bet I'm in the heisman race next week. How's that for ironic?
     
  17. egofailure

    egofailure Sim habits die hard!

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    Arch',

    If you'd like to discuss openly with the league the subject of "stat whoring", that's fine, but I find your approach rather curious. You start by pretending to apologize for a late score, only to then admit to doing so to "prove a point", which eventually leads to calling out members, but refusing to name specifics. How were you expecting this to be constructive again? And just when I think your primary purpose is to discuss the practicing of sim habits, it becomes apparent that your main source of frustration stems from your coaching prestige rating at Ohio State, which ultimately affects your ability to recruit.

    (We're seriously supposed to feel badly for Ohio freakin' State?)

    Thus far this year, you've gone from coaching Ohio State, to Notre Dame, to Auburn, back to Notre Dame, and then to Ohio State for round two. (You've touched three different teams this season.) The majority of us have stayed where we started, which is why your rating sucks, and rest ours do not. JCA, despite becoming a 6-star with Washington, was stuck on a B coaching prestige level until going undefeated last year in the regular season. He's now an A-rated coach, but he certainly had to work for it.

    Coaching prestige is affected MOSTLY by winning, and it isn't even close in comparison to other variables. Next in line is in the achievement of goals, and few (if any) can be met by stat whoring. In other words, if you're still a low-rated coach in a couple seasons, you can blame your W-L record. Having learned this, you might no longer be interested in having this discussion, but I'll continue just in case.

    In truth, I haven't spent much time at all looking at scores. With all the members we've had cycling through our league this year (yourself included), my main concern has been keeping the league together. We've had some losses each season, and all of our new guys have struggled upon entering the league. Thus, while our current sliders aren't challenging enough for our elite teams and veteran players, it's difficult to make things harder when other members in the league are still struggling. My hope was that user battles would help sort out that issue.

    Personally, I find the game to be very easy. Since losing games to the CPU in my first four seasons, my team is now 2X's as talented. In Week 7 vs. Oregon State, I went into half time up 52-7, and then proceeded to kick FGs (on 1st down) from 19, 18, 17, and 18 yards for a total of 12 2nd-half points. Yeah, the score ended up being 64-14, but it could have been 124-14. Meanwhile, my Heisman-contending running back finished with 4 carries for 11 yards. Was I stat whoring?

    Aside from myself, the only #'s I've looked at following the creation of this thread were yours. Here's what I found:

    - Up 27-14 vs Michigan State in Week 4, you kicked a 22-yard field on the last play of the game to win 30-14. Isn't 5 yards plenty of space to run out the clock without scoring?
    - Up 34-18 vs Pitt in Week 5, your starting HB scored his 4th TD of the game with :31 to play.
    - Up 42-20 in the 4th quarter against Purdue in Week 6, your starting QB threw 2 TD passes to your #1 receiver, one with 4:49 to play, the last one with :43 to play.
    - Up 34-0 vs BC in Week 7, you scored 17 points (looks like it was with the backups at least this time), but the last TD came with :28 left. Stats are in the Season 5 Blog, while the stats in the dynasty are a sim because that's when you switched to Ohio State.
    - Up 35-0 vs Wisconsin Week 10, your starting QB threw a TD pass to your starting TE with 2:27 to go in the game.
    - This week, you beat Illinois 66-20, and then posted this thread?






    In 6 out of 9 games you've played this season, one could argue that "un-sim" play took place. I gave the examples above. Two of the games that this didn't happen in were your game vs Michigan as ND and your game vs Michigan State as OSU, both of which were user games. Therefore, when you said it's rare for you to score late and that you were sick and tired of being the only one taking a knee, you meant that ONE GAME vs. Indiana, where you were only up 31-13 when you kicked a field goal with 3:57 left then didn't score after that.


    Look, I'm not trying to turn this into a ball-busting/finger-pointing session, but you kind of forced my hand with this one. ("Now if this doesn't get us talking, I don't know what to do.") Ultimately, I believe that we have a lot of things to improve upon in this league, but we can't fix everything at once. I'm really surprised that you considered this issue a priority ... and felt that calling out members publicly would be more constructive/beneficial than choosing specific examples and approaching people privately.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2012
  18. The Dude

    The Dude Professor of Dudanomics

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    I deny none of the above. I did it.

    I did it, and still I am competing for zero awards. I have not won a heisman since I began, nor have I won any awards at all that I can remember. I may have a fifth place heisman finish somewhere.

    So, essentially, all my stat whoring only scratched the surface of what I would need to do to be relevant. Read that last sentence again. You are making my case for me. I may be a weekly offender, but I am not nearly enough of one, it would seem. I wonder what such an examination would look like if we did it for everyone? Do you think it would get better, or worse if we widened the lens? I know where I'd put my money.

    And my opinions are not only mine. I'm speaking for at least a few guys. I am more than willing to do the slings and arrows thing - if I need to get bloodied a bit, so be it. I admitted to falling into the pattern, but at least I admit there is a pattern to fall into. My only issue with the above post is that it calls me a hypocrite. I've already established that. What I'm saying is that I don't want to be one anymore, nor do I want to play games like I just did, letting my desire to win an award get the better of my sportsmanship, and doing so partly because I know no one will say shit about it. No one will call me out, so I had to call myself out. Many of you should do the same.

    I also agree with the beginning of this post. I didn't - at first - want to have this discussion publicly. But I got to thinking "Why hasn't anyone posted anything apologetic about some of the sillier games in the past couple seasons?" We used to see those posts when someone went a little cheesy. Now we don't. I found that odd, and changed the direction of the conversation, hopefully towards a good end.

    But I gotta say, coming at me for something I already admitted I did and do rather than actually weighing in on the topic (which everyone knows we should discuss) isn't what I expected. Looks like someone's protecting the status quo - and that status quo is losing members with some regularity of late.

    I'm not trying to get over on anyone - I'm trying to help. Wanna keep this thing together? It's gonna take a group effort that we're just not giving. That's all I got.

    I appreciate the research, but I gotta ask another question "If the goal was to discredit me, why was discrediting me the goal? Does proving that I'm just as bad as everyone else really get us anywhere, or does it simply prove how far gone we are?"
     
  19. carolinaeasy

    carolinaeasy Walk On

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    I think what we need to do here is focus on what we have. People have left for whatever reason. Some have given reasons publicly that don't add up with what we can easily see around other leagues here on TSO. Bottom line is they left, they aren't here, so they really aren't of our concern anymore. We have 8 members right now who are playing their games and having fun. We have a very competitive part of the league that is neck and neck for that national title. The user games are deciding, as they should who will and will not be playing for the BCS title game. We have a few new members who are adjusting to the sliders, but are great guys who add alot to their respective conferences. I know in the case of Tbishop he is a hell of a user game player. He is going to get better, he is going to be a force. I know that loaf is struggling at PSU, but it will come around. These are great NEW guys who are adding to our league. We need to focus on the good things rather than worrying about what a couple of guys who didn't publicly state an issue before they left have to bitch about. They are gone, we are not. MOVING ON.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2012
  20. The Dude

    The Dude Professor of Dudanomics

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    OK then. Looks like I'm on my own here. Guess it's better to know that now than to keep bucking the system. Looks like we're exactly where we want to be. But just so we're clear, I don't agree that some of our recent losses are simply "none of our concern." They put in time, and they do well everywhere they go. If we lost them, we should ask ourselves why. We're at 8. We should be at 12. I'm trying to spell out why we're not, and I have a few years under my belt when it comes to this stuff. You can't balance 12 guys when only a quarter of that number matter. That's why we're losing members - it's the same mistake I made when I gave up the most active board on TSO to satisfy the few over the many. It was a mistake then, and it's a mistake now. Only now, I'm the guy on the outs. I'm the one defending a position that would have been a no brainer at this time last year.

    So it goes.
     
  21. jca312

    jca312 Walk On

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    The Dude

    I've played 20 seasons in various Online Dynasties so far and I don't agree with your assessment on how things work.

    Observations:
    Winning games, passing goals, and winning championships are the major determining factors on Coach Prestige.
    Increasing your prestige is difficult and slow, losing games punishes you more than winning games rewards you.
    Yardage doesn't win awards, scoring touchdowns does. That's why your running back with far less yardage than mine and all of the others on the Heisman List is 4th.
    It is also very difficult to keep scoring down with such long quarter lengths.
    The game is too hard for some of us and not hard enough for others, not sure how to solve that without running people off.
    I don't think the scoring in the league has been that out of touch with real life, look at teams like LSU, Oklahoma State, and even Stanford with their ball control rushing attack. Teams are scoring a lot these days, it's more of an offensive game now.

    Not sure where else to go with the many issues you're having, but I'd be happy to discuss anything you felt was needed. Just too tired to focus and sift through it all right now.
     
  22. jca312

    jca312 Walk On

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    We lost people for several different reasons and never once was "stat whoring" brought up.
     
  23. egofailure

    egofailure Sim habits die hard!

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    Not quite. You admitted to stat-whoring this week, but stated that "it was rare" and that you were "tired of being one of these few guys taking a knee". All I showed is that you didn't take a knee very often.

    My first instinct after reading your post was that you were projecting on to others. That's why I decided to research your scores/stats. You assume that because you're trying to "be relavent" and win awards to achieve increased coaching prestige, that others are doing the same. My argument is that for the elite teams/veteran players, the game has become too easy. Scores are high because there's a talent discrepancy. Star players sometimes reach high numbers, but typically in the 1st half if not in the flow of a close game. Personally, I don't give shit about awards. I'm trying to win and have fun. I believe others fall into the same category.

    I'm all for discussing improvements as a team, but in my opinion, this wasn't the way to go about facilitating that process positively and effectively. A couple of solutions? Let's increase the difficulty of the sliders (despite the newcomers) and reduce our quarter length to 7 minutes. I think those two adjustments would go a long way to lowering the scores of games, without having to chew the clock at the start of the 3rd quarter. When it comes down to it, I think that's the biggest problem in terms of our scoring ... not the fact that users are trying to be un-sim for selfish purposes.


    And as for the two people you're referring to who departed? I've never received a PM from them regarding scores. I think those guys left simply took their ball and went home.

    BigD, SoxAndGators, and DerekC all quit under your watch. John Crow left to play with his best friend (BamaGrad) in another league, while County5 simply couldn't get enough Fifa. We've lost members for various reasons this year.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2012
  24. bdub

    bdub Walk On

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    Personally I think its obvious people stat whore. There no way you can beat another BCS team like we do sometimes and say its realistic. You can say what you want but if your beating a team by 5 TD in the 2nd half, you better just kneel on every play as doing anything else is just running up stats. Thats my 2 cents on the matter.
     
  25. The Dude

    The Dude Professor of Dudanomics

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    I typically play out the game as much as I can, but I punt on first down when it gets silly, or at least I used to. I also dive short and kick a FG rather than put two TDs on a team in the 4th quarter when I'm already up 30. But again, that's what I used to do. Hasn't been much of that lately. Can't keep up if you do.
     
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