Option Pitching out of tackeles and other weird, unrealistic stuff

Discussion in 'Thread Archive' started by Korenth, Jul 27, 2010.

  1. Korenth

    Korenth Walk On

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2010
    Messages:
    223
    Option Pitching out of tackeles and other weird, unrealistic stuff

    Been going through replays and saw something in several different player's highlights that I figured needed to be brought up before it became a problem in a user v user game..

    One of the things covered by the TF rules that we're following is the "No unrealistic pitches" rules, which to my understanding includes not pitching out of a tackle.

    The general thoughts by most of the commisioners on the site is that the pitch has to be made/in progress before contact is made. Its not a big deal yet , cause stuff happens, insticnt takes over and we're getting used to the game ...but i just wanted to go ahead and clear that up before it happened in user games and it became a bigger problem.
     
  2. sreese

    sreese Walk On

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2010
    Messages:
    1,119
    Understand and agreed! One of the few cheesey things they have left in the game.
     
  3. shibdib

    shibdib In Nacho We Trust

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2010
    Messages:
    361
    well, i suck at the option and fumble 50% of the time so.. agreed cause it doesnt effect me :)
     
  4. Wick36

    Wick36 Welcome to the Jungle

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2010
    Messages:
    5,283
    Are we going to enforce it as...

    You need to have the pitch completed before you're hit.

    It needs to be most of the way done before you're hit.

    You just need to start it before you're hit.
     
  5. Korenth

    Korenth Walk On

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2010
    Messages:
    223
    If by complete you mean the QB has released the ball and its on its way to whoever is getting it, then yes, we're aiming to have the pitch complete beofre the hit.

    What we're wanting to avoid is mainly have a QB is the middle of a tackle animation, which can take several seconds to actually end the play depending on the tackle, and then pitching the ball out of that animation since the D will converge on the QB when he stops moving.

    So I guess the full answer is the ball should be pitched/in the process of being pitched before contact is initiated.

    Probably want it to look more like this
    [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8AWl0fWfM8"]YouTube- NCAA Football 08 - Option Run[/nomedia]

    rather than this
    [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qo2g-ck_YT8&feature=related"]YouTube- Option 3[/nomedia]

    or this
    [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqGuMiCBbQ4&feature=related"]YouTube- Option 2[/nomedia]

    or this
    [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gf_xDH61nrE&feature=related"]YouTube- Option1[/nomedia]
     
  6. Korenth

    Korenth Walk On

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2010
    Messages:
    223
    Or this
    [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKPYuKAN2GY&feature=related"]YouTube- Option 4[/nomedia]
     
  7. Wick36

    Wick36 Welcome to the Jungle

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2010
    Messages:
    5,283
    Option 1 and 4 were epic.

    But what I guess I'm asking is if you start the pitch before you're hit, and it puts him into the animation where he's getting tackled, but he's just sticking his other arm out, are we calling that an unrealistic pitch?
     
  8. whygodwhy1111

    whygodwhy1111 Walk On

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2009
    Messages:
    2,589
    To be clear the first video you showed of running the option correctly the qb starts the animation before the tackle but the ball is still in his hand as he gets hit. Which is not exactly uncommon in real life (seems realistic to me).

    I would say you need to start the pitch before contact. But i dont make the rules and will follow whatever is decided. Please keep in mind we have east coasters vs west coasters here, that can be .2 to .3 seconds of delay between when you hit the pitch button and the actual pitch starts. It also takes around a quarter to a half a second to complete the pitch animation.

    Additionally, those highlights are older version of the game. It may be worth testing the risk reward of late pitches, combined with how unrealistic they can look in this version to see if it is not actually balanced now. I have not seen any pitch that did not have a full arm animation from my qb and i have fumbled a lot from miss timing the pitches (which happens). I am not saying it is fixed, only that it should probably be tested on this years version.
     
  9. Iron Mickey

    Iron Mickey I'd take her out for some casadias

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2009
    Messages:
    12,445
    Just butting in, but you guys seem to have it right. The easy rule is to have the ball out of the QB's hand prior to contact with a defender.

    Every now and then either by maybe slight lag or accident it happens and all we ask is that you dive straight to the ground or run directly out of bounds.

    Never had a issue really since putting that rule in.
     
  10. whygodwhy1111

    whygodwhy1111 Walk On

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2009
    Messages:
    2,589
    It would appear i have some practicing to do. I had previously always gone for simaltanious pitches so the defender approaching the qb would not follow the ball and tackle the rb. Like in correct sample above. I will start retraining myself and see if the option is still viable.
     
  11. Iron Mickey

    Iron Mickey I'd take her out for some casadias

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2009
    Messages:
    12,445
    trust me it is. and it even works better than holding on till the last min. I dont know if i have any vid from my games, but i can show you a good example of a perfect clean pitch.

    When running the option and the QB has the ball still, when that defender starts coming downhill at you, I always drive right towards him and force him upon my QB and not the pitch man. Works great most the time and result I get a nice clean pitch like you see in real life.
     
  12. whygodwhy1111

    whygodwhy1111 Walk On

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2009
    Messages:
    2,589
    thats good. Now that i think about it, it is kind of rare for the qb to get totally laid out as he pitches.
     
  13. Korenth

    Korenth Walk On

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2010
    Messages:
    223
    I realize the videos were from older games...couldn't find any recent clips...and I don't have movie editing software to slow things down like that..or a video cammera to record me doing a replay.

    I can see about playing a game this afternoon and see If I can post some clips from it.

    Looking at the first video around 1:20...the "pitch animation" is clearly started before contact is made..and the arm appears to be fully extended before then as well. It is kind of a bang-bang play...but its a good example of one that would likely be ok.

    where as in the video Option 2, the Qb is clearly wrapped up at 0:06, and the ball leaves his had at 0:08.
     
  14. Korenth

    Korenth Walk On

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2010
    Messages:
    223
    did a quick play with Georgia tech...ran three plays..got one that made a good video of what we don't want

    Video:
    http://www.easports.com/media/play/video/26434651

    two images taken from that video...the first shows the ball ccarrie wrapped up...the second taken a gound second later shows the start of the pitch, initated after the tackle animation started.

    Pre pitch, note the arm around the left side of the QB, supposedly pinning his left arm
    http://www.easports.com/media/play/image/26434667

    Post pitch, arm is magically free.
    http://www.easports.com/media/play/image/26434590
     
  15. whygodwhy1111

    whygodwhy1111 Walk On

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2009
    Messages:
    2,589
    That was a pretty bad pitch, it was so far behind the back he barely got to the ball. The play ended up a loss and the qb did do a full arm pitch animation (there are plenty of clipping issues in a lot of situations in the game, breaking a wrap up with the right arm is hardly the worst). the reason i suggested playtesting it, was to find out if the game has already balanced late pitches. IE qbs can make ill advised pitches just like they can in real life. Does crazy stuff like in the old videos still occur (horrible, unrealistic animations), and are there an enough fumbles and bad pitches to make late pitches balanced (like they are in real life)?

    Then again i don't see enough option to know how often qbs try to pitch after contact. So maybe having them at all is what is unrealistic.
     
  16. Korenth

    Korenth Walk On

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2010
    Messages:
    223
    It wasn't meant to be an example of a good pitch...it was an example of a pitch after contact, which is what we need to avoid.

    As for playtesting..going to have to be someone else...i despise playing as a option team. I'm just not good at running the option consistantly. Not saying I dont pull out a play every once in a while...but no way would I base my O around it. :)
     
  17. Wick36

    Wick36 Welcome to the Jungle

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2010
    Messages:
    5,283
    If it's really late, it will normally be a really bad pitch.

    If you do it in the middle, the defense won't worry about the running back, and it will be a decent pitch.
     
  18. sreese

    sreese Walk On

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2010
    Messages:
    1,119
    ok fellas in my game against velocity he ran a option play that i think was questionable. I cant get figure out a way to post the replays on here. But they are on my dynasty highlights of that game uath st vs idaho. There are 2 different views let me know if its legal or if he should have fell down on the pitch? thanks
     
  19. SodaAddict

    SodaAddict Proud Hurt Locker Commish

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2010
    Messages:
    1,205
    easiest way to post them here is to download them from the ea website, then upload them to youtube and post them on here using the youtube wrap code. you might even be able to just post the link from the ea website.
     
  20. whygodwhy1111

    whygodwhy1111 Walk On

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2009
    Messages:
    2,589
    looks like he starts pitching the ball right as he is getting hit. The ball is definitely still in his hands after the hit. It thems the rules, then i guess that is against the rules.

    Though with a play that close i dont know that anything other than an ingame "heads up" is required. Its not like you can view the replay before the game is over. So if you were to require the other player to punt, then the entire game would have to be replayed if the replay actually showed no wrong doing. I dout a 30 yard gain was deciding factor in the game. Additionally its not like the pitch broke the defense, they still had a guy miss a tackle behind the line of scrimmage, then a guy missed 5 yards down field, then another guy missed 10 yards down field.

    I am getting really far off topic.

    If the rule is the ball must be out before hit occurs, then i guess the rb should have dove... THOUGH i will say that have the hb dove there was a high likelyhood he would have hit the other defender and fumbled. protecking the ball and not going past where the qb was would be a better solution. ( Excluding goalline animations, if you dive and contact a defender you will usually fumble)

    If the rule is the pitch must be attempted before the hit, this might be too close to call.
     
  21. sreese

    sreese Walk On

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2010
    Messages:
    1,119
    Thanks whygod. just wanted input. I would say he should have ran out of bounds if the dive was not in a good spot like you say. Im not protesting the game it was his win. I told him that before i posted this. I just want the rule to be clear and if it is borderline then i think you should just go down to be fair.
    My main problem with the option in this game is the defense never stays home, like you are trained to do. They get sucked in to the qb everytime even if you have him stopped someone else comes to help, leaving the back lost of wiggle room on the outside. I understand this does happen in real life but not every damn play. lol.
     
  22. whygodwhy1111

    whygodwhy1111 Walk On

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2009
    Messages:
    2,589
    Looked like the def stayed home on that play, they just missed all their tackles.
     
  23. Wick36

    Wick36 Welcome to the Jungle

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2010
    Messages:
    5,283
    Pitch definitely got started after he got hit. He should've fallen to the ground. You won't do the long dive forward if you're not pushing up on the stick all the way, you just fall into a ball.
     
  24. whygodwhy1111

    whygodwhy1111 Walk On

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2009
    Messages:
    2,589
    For future reference, in the hightlight section you can take pictures as well. Press the X button to enter the Regular replay mode, then you can take a picture of exactly what the qb is doing when contact is made. Pictures are automatically uploaded to the Wire
     

Share This Page