You must not have read what I posted in the last Sim 101. http://forums.traditionsportsonline.com/threads/sim-101-volume-3.90192/#post-1210690 FWIW, I have much better success against it now that I user the MLB. But when I played DE, it was BS because my LBs never responded to it. It didn't matter between zone, man, deep zone, etc., etc. My LBs sat there and waited to be blocked. And still, only the LB I user is the one responding to it, even though I see it and my team would be aware of it if I was able to control all 11 players. 10 of my players do nothing until the RB crosses the LOS, which makes it 100% BS to me.
This is my understanding of it as what I assumed from something BobJr said the other day. The LBs don't "engage" the HB until he gets to the LOS. So you're giving them the rush to the line and then say 3-4 yards to play with from the line until LBs take notice. If there is more to it, then someone else will have to address that. In HK, I'd say the great majority of guys user a LB or S and human instinct and response is much better in a video game in this situation than the CPU AI. So if you're playing someone who users DL or against the CPU, I can see an issue where it can be abused. However with the majority, it is something that can be stopped at the line.
Agreed, see my above post in response to Shaver. This is where I am getting at you can't ban it, but limit it. It is a 1v1 situation, user v user. Jump balls are 1v1, tosses can be the same...even stretches and counters.
Yeah but in real life how many draw plays are stuffed in the backfield? Again, the definition of the play design is to make the defense "think" its a pass, therefore, them not rushing the LOS and reading the draw instantly makes sense to me. I have played a few games with the 49ers online, and Bowman and Willis do in fact read the draw and react quicker than most of the other MLBs in the game...
No, I completely agree with you. The real life definition and intent of the play works in the game. Throw the D Off, gain a slight head start on a play.
In real life most LB's don't have time to react until the RB gets to the LOS anyway guys, their first read is pass so they drop back, it takes a little bit for the brain to readjust to run and come up, and it only takes a split second for a guy who runs a 4.3 to get 5 yards to the LOS...
I seriously want to know why NOW this is becoming an issue? We are nearly to the end of our second season of our second release of HK. Abusing it where it has been run too much has come up in individual circumstances, but now we want to start eliminating plays completely. ANY play can be abused and ran way too much. ANY rushing pattern. ANY passing route. So we took away the FB Dive, we take away the draw. We're eliminating guys having an open Playbook. I have much more issue with guys running drags, double crossing routes, and corner routes than I do with guys running draws.
You as a coach should know this better. The OL are coming out to block the LBs and they can't do that if it's a pass. If the OL were staying in, I'd agree with you. But that's not what's happening. In real life, the LBs would react to run as soon as they see OL coming out to block them, not when the RB crosses the LOS. And how many 3rd and long draws go for a 1st down in real life? That's usually a play designed to help with the field position battle rather than risk a turnover. It rarely turns into a 1st down. In the game, your odds of getting a 1st down are actually pretty good.
In real life, the OL don't go straight down field, they delay, like a screen, then go. The LB's, in real life, read pass because they are taught to read the OL, their heads pop up it's pass, which is what happens on a draw. The LB's and OL are generally engaged around 3-5 yards down field, not to say that is the case every time.
Right. In the game though, the OL take off up the field and engage the LBs before the handoff! That's the issue here. The OL are on the LBs 5-7 yards down field every time before the RB gets the ball giving, at worst, an easy 5 yards.
I haven't seen the OL go down field immediately at all in the game, I do recognize that most LB's are engaged at around 5 yards, but at least on my draw plays the OL takes off as soon as the RB gets the ball.
Why are we even talking about the FB dive? That play really has no relevance to the topic of this thread / poll.
because of abuse issues I think, I don't want to speak for the admin team, but I believe that the FB dive is pretty much a guaranteed 1-2 yards on short yardage situations and people were abusing it.
It's a glitch bc the way the CPU is programmed to react to it isn't right.. They don't react to it at all until the HB gets past the line of scrimmage. So it forces guys to do things they don't want to do adjustment wise (pinch d line and only user the MLB all game) just in fear of one play..
Here are my thoughts on the HB draw, if you are going to use it, you absolutely cannot bitch about what the other guy does offensively. If he calls four screens, can't bitch. If he runs corner route after corner route, can't bitch. If he runs toss sweeps after toss sweeps, can't bitch. The draw is a play that I think is a problem, not so much from the mechanics, but the fact that the guy that it is being used against, feels like he is being cheezed, whether he is right or wrong is a different story, but it is the feeling of being cheezed that raises the temperature and makes games more heated. Last night I beat Noles solely due to the onside kick, which apparently is glitchy. I didn't know this, and Im not sure if there is anything you can do to fix it, but a problem like that makes the opponent feel like he is getting cheezed and that causes the problem. The tension between two users that come to a league where people play legit, and then they feel like they are getting cheezed.
The first part...you're saying if we use the draw, we can't bitch if someone else abuses another play. So now you're opening up guys here to overly use other plays with that type of position on it. It can't work like that. Abusing plays is the entire discipline in discussion. It isn't just HK, it isn't new to TSO.....abusing plays is unsim. It has always been that way. Now we want to remove plays because there are maybe a couple of guys who abuse them, and take them away from the people that don't? The majority of members have some respect for one another. MOST members know what is too much in certain circumstances. I don't use the HB draw, but maybe once in 3 games. I don't think I've ran it all season yet. Why? The reason I do this and don't call many plays is because guys have become too quick to pull the trigger and call cheese lately. You're going to get it no matter what. I've seen guys before, not in this league, bitch about someone running too many HB Dives. So you eliminate the draw play...what is next? PA? Counter? The rest is EXACTLY what I was talking about earlier. Guys get beat by it, because they weren't prepared for it. They were expecting pass and got beat on a run. Ask any coach. From HK to the NFL. If you give up a first down on 3rd and 3 or 4+ on the ground, it is the most frustrating thing for a defensive minded guy. Unfortunately, what we run into, is guys in this league who use it as an excuse. It is like you said...whether it is cheese or not, guys call it that way. We all have issues with gameplay. I ran into it last night playing Reb...but there is a difference between legitimate unsim gameplay and frustration driven excuses. When I play guys and I get frustrated, BobJr knows how it is with me...I vent to him, he will vent to me. It's frustration, but it is usually on a lack of execution on our end. Nobody wants to lose and this league is extremely competitive. There are certain things I see during games that are run very often that frustrates me. When guys are running consistent drag routes, double slant routes, curls, and corner routes...that frustrates me when they seem to make up every play....but I deal with it. Frankly, I am sick and tired of the bitching, whining, and complaining that goes on in this league and every league over complete nonsense. I'm here to have fun and play a game. I know myself and others have the willpower to control and call a sim game without bullshit and know what plays can be borderline. If we are running into guys that can't accept that and abuse certain plays, then let them walk.
And to be honest with all of you... You don't lose a game on 3 plays. If 3 draws go for first downs throughout a game and that is your excuse you lost, what the hell did you do the rest of the game?
If I'm playing against someone who is in Cov 3 or Off Man to Man coverage all game, I'm going to curl them do death until they adjust their Defense.
The first part...you're saying if we use the draw, we can't bitch if someone else abuses another play. So now you're opening up guys here to overly use other plays with that type of position on it. It can't work like that. Abusing plays is the entire discipline in discussion. It isn't just HK, it isn't new to TSO.....abusing plays is unsim. It has always been that way. Now we want to remove plays because there are maybe a couple of guys who abuse them, and take them away from the people that don't? My concern is that people that are playing someone on a crucial 3rd and 7, and they go to the HB draw and get a conversion to get a first down to end the game. Is that ok? Is the person that lost the game going to think, "Hey he only ran it once." Of course not, he is going to be pissed that the guy he played went to a play that most on here recognize as a broken play. Now regardless as to whether the play is broken or not isn't the issue, the issue is that the player is going to feel cheezed. Now is he right? I don't know, but the play breeds animosity and that is the point Im trying to make. The majority of members have some respect for one another. MOST members know what is too much in certain circumstances. I don't use the HB draw, but maybe once in 3 games. I don't think I've ran it all season yet. Why? You don't run it because you don't want people to think you are taking advantage of a flaw in the CPU logic and you want the other person to think that you are a sim player, that way when you win, he can't bitch. That is why you are well respected and people trust your opinion. The reason I do this and don't call many plays is because guys have become too quick to pull the trigger and call cheese lately. You're going to get it no matter what. I've seen guys before, not in this league, bitch about someone running too many HB Dives. So you eliminate the draw play...what is next? PA? Counter? I totally agree here. Its getting to the point that Corner routes, curl routes, slant routes, fade routes, and out routes are considered cheese, that doesn't leave many passes left. I think this year's Madden has the least amount of cheezy routes than most football games I have played. Its not cheeze to complete a pass. I think some people think it is. The rest is EXACTLY what I was talking about earlier. Guys get beat by it, because they weren't prepared for it. They were expecting pass and got beat on a run. Ask any coach. From HK to the NFL. If you give up a first down on 3rd and 3 or 4+ on the ground, it is the most frustrating thing for a defensive minded guy. Unfortunately, what we run into, is guys in this league who use it as an excuse. It is like you said...whether it is cheese or not, guys call it that way. We all have issues with gameplay. I ran into it last night playing Reb...but there is a difference between legitimate unsim gameplay and frustration driven excuses. When I play guys and I get frustrated, BobJr knows how it is with me...I vent to him, he will vent to me. It's frustration, but it is usually on a lack of execution on our end. Nobody wants to lose and this league is extremely competitive. There are certain things I see during games that are run very often that frustrates me. When guys are running consistent drag routes, double slant routes, curls, and corner routes...that frustrates me when they seem to make up every play....but I deal with it. I think there should be a rule that you don't bitch about game play for 24 hours. Things always look different the next day. I wanted to physically assault Soxandgators after a game last year, and was pretty embarrassed how far off the cliff I went. Im freaking in my mid 30s and have three kids, a wife, a dog, and a turtle, and I was furious. Frankly, I am sick and tired of the bitching, whining, and complaining that goes on in this league and every league over complete nonsense. I'm here to have fun and play a game. I know myself and others have the willpower to control and call a sim game without bullshit and know what plays can be borderline. If we are running into guys that can't accept that and abuse certain plays, then let them walk. I think we agree on a ton of this. Personally I've run maybe two draws early in the season, and I just can't seem to get them to work. Maybe its just me. I really don't care if people run them, but I don't want someone who runs a draw, complaining about someone running a curl route. The bottom line is that people are going to gain yards and score points - unless you are playing biggcoug65. If we are calling out cheezers, I think cougg is cheezing with that defense. I think he should be required to sit either Bowman or Willis for at least a half.
Well, based on a situation like that... Up 7 points at the end of the game, facing a 3rd and 7, the Offensive user would be pretty dumb in my opinion to try and throw the ball... 1. it stops the clock on an incomplete pass 2. you risk a turnover 3. you risk a sack fumble The negatives outweigh the positives in my opinion in that situation... I think most people that were winning the game, would in fact run the ball and play Defense to seal the victory.
It isn't that I don't want people to think I am unsim...but this goes with both of your responses... Look at what it has become. Guys complain so much that we avoid wanting to deal with it. It is like my ex-gf. I'd avoid certain things to avoid argument. That guy that gives up a first down to a draw on 3rd and 7...is he pissed that it was a completely cheesey, unstoppable play or because he is frustrated he gave it up? I will compare this to the PSU game v Nebraska this past weekend. Everyone was up in arms over that horrendously blown no TD call...but in reality, that ONE play doesn't decide a football game. ONE play doesn't dictate who wins and who loses. Is running a draw in that situation bogus? Yeah...I wouldn't do it personally (to avoid the complaint), but if it was something that didn't carry this mantra, I'd definitely run it in that situation.
I honestly don't go into any game worrying about what my opponent thinks about what I'm doing... If your blitzing the hell out of me, or consistently dropping 8 men into coverage on 3rd and long, I'm going to run a draw or a screen pass to counter that... If throughout the game you refuse to man up on my WR's and you play off of them 10 yards and are bailing into Deep Cov 3 zone, I'm going to eat you up with 10 yard outs and Curl routes... If your consistently running Cov 2 zone, bumping my WR's and then letting them go, I'm going to streak my TE and WR on the same side and make the Safety (who has deep 1/2 responsibility) pick his poison and cover the Streaking WR or the Streaking TE... I don't think there is anything wrong with adjusting your Offense / Defense based on how your opponent is playing you.
