Where the fuck was all this discussion when we JUST talked about draw plays not 5 days ago? This is exactly why I started the SIM 101 thread. Now when it comes down to banning a play people wanna talk about it? Jeesh.
How does one "glitch unfair play" have NOTHING to do with another "glitch unfair play"? It is a perfectly relevant question.
My thinking is if it is going to piss someone off, don't do it. If the play is sooo glitchy that it forces our commish BobJr to stop running, it should be considered bad enough for the league to stop running. Then again, if this passes and we don't ban it, I never want to hear anyone complain about it agian.
I don't have time to read all the responses but here's my two cents: If it cannot be stopped, then it should be banned. If it can be stopped, then it should be allowed. Simple as that. Honestly, I do not think there is anything in this game that cannot be stopped. Yes, some plays/routes are more effective than others and should not be abused, but there is a defense for every offense. Some guys do things on defense that create issues too. I don't know what BiggCoug and ChildPlease do on defense but its almost impossible to run up the middle on them. Should we ban that? I can't run outside over and over but whatever they run on D makes it almost impossible to run up the middle. How about flag routes and out routes? Flag routes are damn near 100% against many defenses. Out routes vs man by TEs and RBs are nearly automatic. Should we ban them too? I think sometimes guys get stuck in the mindset of running their base defense and don't want to have to think outside the box to stop stuff. If their base defense dosen't stop it they think its cheese. Maybe its because its a base defense??? Again, I think you limit things like draws (I do agree they are slightly more effective than they should be) but you can't ban them (or plays like that) otherwise you'd have 1/3 of your playbook off limits. That's not "sim" either.
Yeah, but to run a play that we know is flawed is the issue. There are plenty of running plays you can call if you want to run the ball, feel free. Now if you are running the HB draw because you know it will be open because of a flaw in the CPU logic, then that is exactly the problem that I have with the play call.
Good point, if guys are knowingly running plays that are deemed "glitches" then yes I agree with you... However, I (and others) don't have any issues with a draw play... Also, like I listed above, those situations and circumstances in my opinion scream DRAW / SCREEN and it would be wise for the Defense to expect them... I don't know how you could possibly police someones "intent" when they run certain plays... --- ie --- is he running it because he knows its a glitch... Honest to god, before this thread, I hand no idea people considered the Draw as a glitch play... Also, I'm not sure why the FB Dive is banned either... I've stopped that play and been stopped on that play many many times... Do you have to gear up for it? Yes... Do you have to stack the box, well yeah... That's the point of those plays, to get 1 yard... If the Defense isn't aligned properly they are going to work for that 1 or 2 yards every single time... However, I don't believe that this means the play is too effective...
I have no problem with most of what you said, feel free to adjust accordingly, the issue though is taking advantage of a flawed play. That is the issue. So there are two basic issues: 1) Is the draw play flawed? If Yes then... 2) Is ok for a User to used a flaw play, even a little? If Yes then, I think that all plays should be fair game. WHich is why I voted in favor of banning the play, because its a flawed play. The passing routes, screens, runs, and everything else, I have seen teams adjust to those plays or can user a player to take things away, but I haven't seen anyone say that you can take away this play. As I said earlier, no one is saying you can't run from the gun, or run about 10 different running plays out of the shotgun, trust me there are several. They simply don't work as well as the draw, which the reason people want to keep using them, because they know its a play that can be exposed to their advantage at certain key times. Look, Im fine either way, I recently played someone that ran 3-4 draws and it didn't really affect the game on my end, though they did go for about 10 yards a pop.
The Bengals don't have Patrick Willis. I used you as a reference but I have played several teams on TSO in general that are extremely tough to run on up the middle. Its a combo of players and scheme I'm sure, but overly effective nonetheless.
Eh.. there is a difference between someone being good at something and something being "overly effective". I think people tend to get the lines crossed at times.
are you sure they dont have Patrick Willis? I have been known to loan him out for games like in the Premier Futbol Leagues
That's true but are people good at running draws or is it overly effective? I think its all how uiu choose to look at it. Defensively it "seems" that I cannot run up the middle against some players but I can't say for sure it's not just the players. I think that can be said about most things in the game though. Sometimes you just need to practice a little to figure it out. My philosophy is that if one guy can stop/counter it, then everyone can with the right players/scheme.
With the majority of precincts in, it looks like this is clearly going the way of "no". The people have spoken so all of the "yes" vote need to get in line and accept it. The "no"s have a clear mandate moving forward.
Let me dive into this...work sucks.. Ok.. A lot of great points are made, and I love the debate thats going. First of all I want to remind guys that we cannot really compare NFL to Madden. We are playing under different circumstances and we have different variables in the game. So the "well they do it IRL" needs to be thrown out the window. The game we are given doesn't have the capabilities to truly be 100% lifelike, and I think we all need to realize that. With that said, you still have to be considerate of what you are doing. Secondly the reason the FB dive play was banned, was because guys were using it too much on the goaline, too much on 3rd and 1, and too much overall. I literally played an opponent that ran 7 FB dives. When it's 3rd and inches three times and you've run FB dive three times, that is annoying. Maybe Jshaver can give us all some tips on how to stop it. I personally don't mind any plays, in moderation. But when you run 3 draws in one drive, or 3 screens in one drive, or 5 wide formation over and over..give me feelings of being defeated and they take away from the experience. It's like running outside, I think it's fine...until you do it every other run or every other play. I would actually consider it a lack of respect for your opponent, and that is where the true problem lies. We are a league, a brotherhood, a fraternity. If we can't respect each other then what are we doing? Alot of this is the mixture of "new blood" and old blood. Most of us have played together for two releases now, some even 3. Some even more. Most of us are good friends, that text each other daily about the game or issues, etc. We know what pushes each others buttons, something the new guys (no offense) will have to learn with time. It's just part of the bumps and bruises of being in an established league. Shaver, you do know there is a thing called Artifical intelligence, or known as AI. Sometimes when people call man, the curl can still beat it. I have an issue with some of your comments, they can be construed as a "win at all cost" mentality. Something I nor most of HK is a fan of. Don't take it the wrong way, that's just how I feel you are coming across in this thread.. Now I do appreciate the conduct you guys have shown on such a hotly debated topic.
Bob, I'm sorry if it came across that way, that really wasn't what I was trying to say. What I was mainly saying is that people sometimes are too quick to ban things and call things flawed that they aren't good at defending... They expect the Opponent to stop doing the things they can't stop, and when the opponent doesn't stop doing those things they get deemed glitch or unsim... In this discussion, people can't stop Draw plays, in obvious draw situations and they are saying its an issue with the game... In my opinion I think its just an issue of not being "ready" for a draw, which, by definition is the exact play design of a draw (to catch the defense off gaurd)... Teams that have stud LB's like Willis, Ray Lewis and others with High awareness and play recognition will have much better success stopping draw plays, but you can't expect every linebacker to play like those guys, and you also can't call the game or the play broken when those average linebackers don't play like those guys. I'm not a win a all costs player. I pretty much just takes what the Defense is giving me. In my post above that's what I was trying to say. I apologize if I worded it wrong and it came off the wrong way. Also your 100% correct, even if my opponent is in tight man coverage curls and outs can still work, however the chances of them working are much less then if they we playing Off Man Coverage or a deep zone. That's kinda what I was trying to say. Sorry if I didn't word it the right way lol... Along these same lines, generally if i see my opponent in tight man coverage (if i was running an out / curl) I would probably not throw his direction...
You can't say if it pisses someone off don't do it though...I know I said earlier there are things I don't do in certain situations, because guys will bitch, but ultimately, if there is someone that is one of those guys that bitches out of frustration because they're losing, that is an issue they have to deal with. I still don't think it is THAT glitchy. I can't run the play effectively, that's why I don't use it. It can be stopped. I think this is just like EVERY play in any playbook...use it in moderation and don't be a douche about it. I know for a fact Bob runs it, he has against me...but he doesn't abuse it. The argument should be, like I have been trying to say, is not simply about the play, it is about guys abusing it and over-using it. Like Bob said, if you're using it 3 times in a drive, that is a problem. If you use it 3 times in a game, that is not an issue. The play is designed to fool the defense. I've played football and I know the rules, sorry HAL9100, but I do. The argument about if the LBs see the line coming to block them, they should know it is a run right away is null...why? If you're a LB or DLineman and you see the OLine allowing you to get through on a screen, how come they still go for the QB and not look for the HB or WR on a screen? It is a play designed to fool the defense. Just like play action. If you see that the line isn't coming out to block on a PA, why bother attacking the run? The mindset of the defense is simple. Either pass or run. It is such an instinctive game that whatever you see first, you're likely going to believe that is what is coming. This is such a simple matter to me. - IF the play is ABUSED and run too frequently, that is an issue. - IF the play is ran and it goes for a first down on you, don't bitch...you're bitching out of frustration that you just gave up a first down on the ground, not because the play is glitchy. - IF the play is run and the HB takes the ball outside the tackles and runs parallel to the LOS...and that happens FREQUENTLY, that is an issue. You can't give it a limit or a number. It is a matter of respect for your opponent. A lot of the guys that bitch about this play being run against them, tend to lean and favor other plays. If you're going to bitch about the draw being run a few times, don't run corners frequently. The biggest thing with this league in my honest opinion, is guys need to open up their playbooks more.
You see, there's this rule/penalty called "ineligible man down field". This states that it is against the rules to pass the ball when a member of the OL(or ineligible man depending on the formation) is past 3 yards down field from the LOS. So if an LB has an OL coming at them and they aren't on the LOS, they know it's a run. Why? Because the offense will get penalized if they pass. There is no possible trick to get a pass out of this situation. It's run or get penalized.
