Putting a HB at QB in Gator Heavy

Discussion in 'After Midnight' started by Cheez, Dec 28, 2011.

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  1. Cheez

    Cheez TSO's 1,000,000th Poster

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    Cougs has a formation sub package in his Gator Heavy set that puts a HB at QB. He and I have already gone 12 rounds over this and the only thing we could really agree on is to bring it up for discussion with you guys. So I ask you: cheese or no?
     
  2. Kapono

    Kapono Walk On

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    I guess that's fine. Just a wildcat formation with a different look.

    But I do remember playing against teams in ranked game that just used LaMichael James and Kenjon Barner in it and it was impossible to stop. Is he using this in goal line situations, like UF did or just whenever?
     
  3. Bucs

    Bucs GT: ThruTheSmoke47

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    Cheesey IMO.
     
  4. gowazzucougs

    gowazzucougs WSU is better than UCLA

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    Let me break it down for you, and set the reason Cheez is upset. I use it in short yardage/goal line situations, but I will also use it on first/second down. I don't call it a lot, maybe two to four times a game on first or second down. It depends on how the game is going, last night against Jayrah I called it twice, against Boom I ran it twice on the first series not inside his five, then one other time. It also depends on how it is working, if it is not working, like last night I will not even call it.

    Where I have ruffled Cheez is my goal of calling pass plays with my back. Here was the situation the score was 31-7 late in the third quarter, there was no way I was coming back. I figured in this situation, I wanted to see how elusive my back could be in the pocket if his linemen got to me. This is because when you practice against a C+ defense things that look go in practice, don't necessarily look good against superior teams. So I told him I want to run this particular play I didn't tell him what it was. In addition I told him I didn't want him to blitz. I had called a pass play with my back, in this particular situation I wasn't necessarily looking to pass, I will admit that. I just wanted to see how it would go in a game situation. Well Cheez called an overload blitz in a nickel package, and with his superior linemen and then throw in this blitz, my reaction was to run. I ran to the side where there was no blitz and had a 70 yard run. His comments was that I made no attempt to pass, and that was correct I didn't because as soon as I saw the blitz I just took off running based on instinct.


    Now there is a couple of things, that need to be addressed, first do I need to limit when I use this package? Should I only be able to use in third and three or less situations, or can I use it whenever? Second, if I use this formation, should my opponent be able to use Run Left, Run Right on defense (Boom did this to me later in the game)? If the user is allowed to do this, it nullfies any running plays. Third, if I call a pass using my running back what are the general expectations from the other user in regards to my back running with the ball if no one is open? I think that is the real issue, and should be address. I don't want to do anything unsim, people who have played me know I will have my QB take off running generally if he feels pressure/almost gets sacked, or no one is open. I never run to the outside, if I run with the QB it is generally through the pocket not outside of it.

    Now with the running back it becomes something different because his a lot faster than my QB, or any of our QBs. Now on the play in question if Cheez calls a base play I wanted to see how elusive my back was against D-Line. What I got instead was an overload blitz where my instinct said run the ball, and since driving back to work and having time to think about it, I don't now how unsim it is. He sends an overload blitz my reaction is to run away from the blitz, what is he suppose to do stand there and get sacked? If he didn't blitz my guy would have been in the pocket.

    Lastly, Cheez why you are running a nickel package anyway? There were no WRs in the personnel grouping, though there is one person lined in a wide out position. You should be lined in a base 4-3/3-4 setting. I know I was losing, and you could say you were expecting a pass, but I wouldn't have gone with a Nickel Package with that formation. I know you could say that about me and my unwillingness to go into nickel packages when you come out in 3 wide sets is because I don't believe you are going to pass. However, if it is third and long I will come out in nickel/dime packages because I believe you will pass like I did in this game.
     
  5. gowazzucougs

    gowazzucougs WSU is better than UCLA

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    Says the man, who ran about every single run play to the outside against me.
     
  6. Bucs

    Bucs GT: ThruTheSmoke47

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    really? lol get the stick out of your ass
     
  7. Bucs

    Bucs GT: ThruTheSmoke47

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    IMO if the formation is designed to be run by a QB then that is who should run it. If you dont have a QB capable of doing that then think about taking the formation out.
     
  8. Boom29

    Boom29 Walk On

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    This is my opinion. If you look at the formation playbook, it specifically states "QB Sweep" and "QB Blast" as two of the plays. It also has more passing plays than running plays as opposed to "Wildcat" formations that have a slight majority of running plays.

    In regards to me calling Run Left, Run Right, I think I only did this against this formation (i thought it was a Wildcat formation) or when you were at my goal line. I guess I'll have to reread the rules, but I thought it was allowed at least at the goal line/very short yardage situations.
     
  9. recchem2000

    recchem2000 UCLA > WSU

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    Im ok with this in short yardage situations. I knew this was coming by the way :)

    I wouldnt say anything anyone does in this league is cheese (see some of the non-premier league and you'll get your share). There are always going to be borderline plays in user games because when you are playing sometimes you are just running for your life so you break outside. I know for a fact all of us a guilty of this from time to time. So, get over the cheese or no-cheese crap and lets play ball. Don't make me start using my DT and throwing 4 verts all game damn it!
     
  10. Boom29

    Boom29 Walk On

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    I would like to add that it doesn't really bother me, but if we're going for sim, then it should be run by a QB capable of doing so.
     
  11. gowazzucougs

    gowazzucougs WSU is better than UCLA

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    I didn't complain about you using the run left/run right in the game because it something that needs to be addressed. To me it just nullifies any potential use of calling a run play out of that formation. In addition I played rec, jayrah and cheez this season and they stopped it pretty well without using it.
     
  12. Cheez

    Cheez TSO's 1,000,000th Poster

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    1st - that's not the only reason im upset cougs. We went over this. Using a HB at the QB position establishes precedent. If it's good for one formation, it's good for all of them. You have to take that into account. What if we did this with @whygodwhy1111's triple option offense from last year in NO? Essentially, he could have had his choice of 3 HBs taking the ball.

    2nd - you told me not to blitz after I had already selected my play - not much I could do. We discussed this, and you accepted that fact. Yet you fail to mention it and seemingly try to criminalize the act here in the topic.

    3rd - The Gator Heavy formation yields itself to passing, ergo I chose to run with a pass defense. My LBs aren't good in coverage, so I wanted an extra DB on the field.

    Lastly, in our position change rules it explicitly states what constitutes a qb:



    This is not a wildcat based package. It is a shotgun set. Ergo, by our current rules this should not be allowed.

    Now please keep this civil. Nobody needs to bring up sticks in asses or other nonsense. I have played everyone in this league and know that we all are good, sim players. This wrinkle was recently added and that is why it is being discussed. Remember, my opinion is that - only an opinion. If you guys all think it's good - then we're good. If not, then you know where I stand.
     
  13. Boom29

    Boom29 Walk On

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    gowazzucougs, I didn't think you were complaining, but you do bring up a good point about usage of run commit vs wildcat formations. I just merely wanted to give my rationale as to why I did call it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2011
  14. Cheez

    Cheez TSO's 1,000,000th Poster

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    Let me add one thing. If we did allow this formation sub - we would have to legislate what constitutes "making an effort to find a receiver". I mean, we all know that sprinting out of the pocket and just running off is cheese, but how long does it take to find a receiver? 1 second? 2? when can the QB take off? Are we going back to playground rules: 1 apple, 2 apple, 3 apple, go?
     
  15. gowazzucougs

    gowazzucougs WSU is better than UCLA

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    Sorry Cheez, I am calling BS on that. If you want to say what I am doing is against the rules, I won't run it. End of discussion. But to tell me you that this formation with that personnel grouping yields to passing is ludricious, especially when there is no QB listed in the personnel groupings that every person sees before calling a play. Boom used run commit, you call a defense you would normally see in passing situations. If someone is using the run commit to stop that formation with that personnel, NO ONE should be playing the pass and you are ignoring that fact.

    If I am using my running back as a quarterback and I am only running run plays, my opponent should be playing for that and not the pass. That is why I call 4-3 defenses against you when you have 3 wide sets, your tendency is to run the ball and not pass. And until you show me that you are going to pass out of that personnel grouping I am am going to expect run. I cannot for the life of me see how that personnel grouping yields to passing especially based on that tendency. If you want to tell me the heavy formation yields to passing fine, but you need to consider the personnel that is out on the field. Because about any formation could yield to passing. So I could play nickel and dime every time defense.
     
  16. Cheez

    Cheez TSO's 1,000,000th Poster

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    The gator heavy does lend itself to passing in your offense. You have three tight ends on the field at all times - and TEs in your offense are glorified receivers. Granted, you are better than some at getting the ball to your receivers rather than TEs, but it's still at best a 50/50 split set.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2011
  17. Cheez

    Cheez TSO's 1,000,000th Poster

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    gowazzucougs

    Furthermore, by saying that it is not a primarily passing formation, you are basically admitting that you intend to run out of it with your HB and do little else. Ergo, this whole discussion is pointless. You want a formation which you can cheese out of - plain and simple.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2011
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  18. Boom29

    Boom29 Walk On

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    for illustration purposes only...

    [​IMG]
     
  19. gowazzucougs

    gowazzucougs WSU is better than UCLA

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    Cheez

    Again I said above I WILL NOT RUN THE HEAVY FORMATION. It is just unclear to me now what the issue is. I call designed run plays with my running back at QB, and that is cheese according to, and you allowed call a defense designed to stop the pass when I run that formation, and that is sim, correct? I just want to be clear. Second, if a defense sends an overload blitz and considering how quick your defense is, the person playing QB cannot run away from the blitz, is that correct?

    And you are allowed to run a play action pass on third and ten against me and score a touchdown, and tell me after the fact it was an "accident" and that you were not paying attention, even though that is clearly against the rules? I just want to establish that you are allowed to do things that your opponent thinks is questionable or clearly against the rules, but your opponent is not. That is what I am reading.

    Cheez I can let that shit go it is just a game, but I don't want to listen to you or anyone else make as sine comments or accuse me of cheating. If you want to make the accusation I was cheating, which you are basically doing I would have fucking done it early in the game, not when it was well in hand, and I wouldn't have made the warning don't blitz. Remember as I said I was trying to test something out, and I didn't want to do against a blitz. Lastly, I ran this offense last season in Night Owls, rec, jface, and dakota never complained.

    Lastly about your argument regarding the possibility of me throwing to my tight ends. You may actually want to look at the stats before you make un informed comments. This season my tight ends have caught a total of 3 passes. Your tight ends have caught I believe 14 passes.


    I am done responding to this thread
     
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