Realistic Field Goal Kicking-Proposed Rule

Discussion in 'After Midnight' started by gowazzucougs, Nov 16, 2011.

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Should we adopt Field Goal Kicking Proposed Rule

  1. Yes

    3 vote(s)
    42.9%
  2. No

    4 vote(s)
    57.1%
  1. gowazzucougs

    gowazzucougs WSU is better than UCLA

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    Cheez
    Jayrah
    bucsfan047
    recchem2000
    MaxATX34
    Kapono
    whygodwhy1111

    I have thought about this for a while now, I believe I have come up with a proposed rule that everyone can live with regards to field goal kicking without adjusting the sliders. I believe everyone would agree the field goal kicking is way too easy on this game, and that if someone gets an exceptional power kicker, cough Cheez, cough it creates an unrealistic advantage. Kicking long range field goals at the college level is exceptionally hard just ask any Alabama fan. And seeing teams in our dynasty have field goal kickers able to kick 60 yard field goals with no problem is just unrealistic, and is NOT SIM. In the NFL the longest kicks I see a team attempt regularly is like 55 yards, when neither half is ending. And the vast majority of the teams will not try a 55 yard field goal.

    Therefore I propose a rule for next season, that regardless of how long your kicker can kick, team should not kick a field goal no longer than 53 yards, under normal game situations. However, at the end halves, a team can kick 54 yard field goal or longer. I believe a 53 yards is a good distance to draw the line, partly because the last kick the bama kicker attempted in the bama v. lsu game was a 53 yards, which everyone in the stadium, including Coach Saban knew wasn't going through the uprights. In addition, in allowing the 54+ yard kicks at the end of each half, it would give the defensive team, condition on them having time outs, to ice the kicker. Making the kick harder.

    Maybe I am whiner, but I think this is a reasonable rule request.
     
  2. Cheez

    Cheez TSO's 1,000,000th Poster

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    Cougs - no offense, but I think you're way off base on many of your points:

    #1 -Look at the long field goals from this year:

    http://espn.go.com/college-football/statistics/player/_/stat/kicking/sort/longFieldGoalMade

    Their are nine kickers this year alone who have made kicks longer than 53 yards. Note that most of them dont go to BCS schools. The reason for that is that in many cases the top kickers don't go to the top schools in the country. They will go to schools that are middle of the road because they are likely to see the field more often. Not to mention that using one game as the example is completely illogical and statistically irrelevant. So your basis for setting 53 as the bar is out.

    #2 - Look at the long field goals from the past few years:

    Kickers who have made a FG at 55 in 2011: 4
    2010: 6
    2009: 5
    2008: 5
    2007: 5

    So it's rare, but not as rare as you think. I'm not saying 55 yarders happen every game, but they do happen at a higher rate than you give credit for.

    #3 - Look at the long FG from the past few years:

    2011: 56
    2010: 61
    2009: 59
    2008: 64
    2007: 60

    60 yarders actually happen! They aren't a complete breakdown of game logic. I have never kicked a 61+ yard field goal without the aid of wind, which would actually seem to correlate with the legs of kickers in real-life. To me, it looks like correlating kick power to actual long field goals is accurate.

    Cougs, I'll give you that kicking long field goals is too easy. But it is doable, as it is in real life. That's why I am a proponent of not limiting it. And 53 is indeed way to short to limit it, in the event that you guys would want some semblance of a rule like this in place.
     
  3. Jayrah

    Jayrah AllCougdUp.com Editor - A.M. avatar Guru

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    Obviously what cougs is trying to say is that they don't happen in "normal" game situations. Therefore you'd be able to attempt something like at the end of half/game situations. Maybe capping it at 55 would be fair in "normal" game situations outside of a minute.
     
  4. Cheez

    Cheez TSO's 1,000,000th Poster

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    Can you prove that all of the longest field goals that have occurred in life have been in late half/game situations? If he is making that particular argument, then he needs to make that proof.
     
  5. Jayrah

    Jayrah AllCougdUp.com Editor - A.M. avatar Guru

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    When have you seen one tried in a "normal" situation? 99.9% of coaches go for it or punt, even if their kicker has "the leg". I wish ea to make fg kicking a "watch only" event, so that we'd have no say in the strength or accuracy of the kick itself, just the choices on where is a realistic and legit spot to attempt a fg is for our kicker. I also wish the accuracy of a P that kicks would be drastically lowered for kicking purposes.
     
  6. Dru50

    Dru50 Still Chicago's #1 son

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  7. gowazzucougs

    gowazzucougs WSU is better than UCLA

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    I am not saying they don't happen, I am saying it is too easy on this game. I have two points in arguing for this rule, and I think the rule addresses each point. First it is not easy to kick 50+ yard field goals. Here is the statistical breakdown of the top 14 kickers, starting with the 56 going down to 53 yards.

    56 2-4
    56 1-3
    55 2-3
    55 2-3
    54 1-3
    54 1-1
    54 1-1
    54 1-1
    54 1-2
    53 3-3
    53 2-3
    53 1-2
    53 1-1

    The two kickers who have made 56 yard field goals are respectively 1-3 and 2-4 respectively from 50+ distance. The best kicker out of the bunch is the kicker who is a perfect 3-3, and his longest is shockingly 53 yards. You do not see many teams attempt many 50+ field goals, because the risk/reward factor. If your kicker makes it great, if you miss the other team gets the ball in great field position. In this game this risk/reward factor is not there, all you have to do is have the arrow right, and get the power bar meter at full power it is good.

    Second, when are these kickers attempting these field goals. Your stats do not show us that. When I watch games, I don't see these kickers attempting and making 55+ yard field with 5 minutes to go in the second quarter. I see it at the end of halves, the Idaho kicker's 55 yarder was made at the end of the first half against SJSU. In the Hawaii game, I believed I saw the Idaho kicker attempt like a 54 yard field goal to win the game with seconds remaining where he shanked it horribly. I took a look at all the kickers who made 54+ or longer field goals. The first two made their kicks in blow outs, when there was no pressure, the risk reward factor was little to the coaches. The vast majority were attempted at the end of the first half, or the second half. I believe I saw two kickers make their 54 yard field goal kicks during non end of half situations. The Cal kicker made his against Oregon, however it is the only 50+ all season. Partly because Cal is playing their games SF Giants baseball stadium where we know wind is a definite factor. The other kicker was the KSU kicker against Oklahoma, they were down 14-0, so you can make the statement, they are trying to get something positive on the board after a drive of some sorts, and I believe that is his only kick from distance.

    I am not saying doing away with 55+ yard field goals, but there needs to be a challenge that is currently not there, allowing it at the end of halves is realistic while providing the challenge. It gives the opponent the opportunity to ice the kicker making the kick tougher. Because currently, it is an automatic 3 points, which complete BS.

    In looking at our stats, they are not realistic. The OSU kicker, let me correct PUNTER is 29/30 with a long of 63 yards. That is definitely not realistic, your kicker is 17/17 with a long of 61. It is realistic if you are the defense, that there is a chance that the kicker will miss, currently there is no reason if you are the defense to have that expectation.
     
  8. gowazzucougs

    gowazzucougs WSU is better than UCLA

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    Jayrah

    recchem2000

    as i told you the guy who always questions any idea saying it is not realistic, is opposed to this proposed rule change. Even though, my argument is completely reasonable, logical, and still allows for 54+ field goals in REALISTIC SITUATIONS.
     
  9. Dru50

    Dru50 Still Chicago's #1 son

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    gowazzucougs - for what it's worth - I looked up stats on ESPN for 2010 FG's of 50+ yards and the top 40 kickers were 60-93 (64.5%). That isn't including the other 77 kickers that I would imagine are worse.

    Cheez - out of curiousity, what is the percentage for user kickers on 50+ yard FG's?

    These discussions are really the only thing I miss about NCAA.....
     
  10. Cheez

    Cheez TSO's 1,000,000th Poster

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    I wish EA would come up with a more fg kicking system as well. I have conceded that it is easy to make field goals. What they could do - I have no idea. Perhaps they could have users only dictate the angle / power of the kick, and have the accuracy rating which acts as a weighted random factor that determines whether the ball goes through the uprights. I really dont know. Maybe they should include an intimidation factor that takes into account a "mis-hit" on a kick caused by the rush. Those are also a couple ideas I have.

    Jayrah, the long kicks over the years may or may not have occurred in late half/game situations. For Cougs' argument to have any validity at all, he needs to show that every kick 53+ has been in late half/game situations. If you or he can do that, then we can talk using that as merit. Otherwise, the argument hold water.

    Furthermore, our rules inhibit the ability to go for it on 4th in some of these situations. Below are the rules for going for it on fourth down:
    • If you are behind 3 or more TD’s in the 3rd quarter or 2 or more TD’s in the 4th quarter, going for it on 4th down is allowed at any time.
    • If you are losing with less than 3 minutes to play in the game, going for it on 4th down is allowed at any time.
    • If you have 4th and less than a yard from inside the 50 yard line, going for it on 4th down is allowed at any point in the game.
    • If you have a kicker with low kick power, you may go for it on 4th down from the 40 yard line in at any point in the game. Issues such as this should be communicated to your opponents in advance of the game so that they are aware.
    Say hypothetically Team A is facing 4th and 9 from Team B's 43 yard line, and is trailing by 10 with 4 minutes to go. Also assume that Team A has a kicker with the leg to make a 60 yard field goal. The league rules stipulate that Team A would not be able to go for it on fourth down, limiting their options to punt or fg. With this situation in mind, the field goal would be the smart move to make. It would cut the deficit to one score. But under both yours and Cougs' suggestions - this person would be forced to punt. This is un-sim in my opinion.

    If there was a way to make it more difficult, I would certainly be open to it. The only way to do that is to tinker with sliders, and that would only be a partial fix because sliders do not affect user games. That's my only opposition to sliders - if they worked in user games, then this would be a non-issue and it would have been done already.

    Now, going on to the highlighted section of your post. You're the one who made the claim that they only occur at the end of halves, so you are the one that needs to back it up. You have given a couple of examples here - but haven't actually proven anything. In mathematics - the argument can only be proven if and only if the argument satisfies all cases. To disprove, you only need one example. You are the one trying to make the proof in this case.

    The same premises must be satisfied logically in mathematics as they must be in any other sort of debate. One person makes a claim, they must satisfy it for all cases, not just use a couple and call it a representative sample.

    I dont know what this means, but it sounds to me like you are calling me illogical, which I take offense to. My defenses are also based out of logic and reason. You are the one making claims that are only substantiated by observation - and not even the observation of every situation. So therefore you cannot prove your point to be true.



    In the event that the league wanted to make a slider change - it would only effect accuracy. Lowering the accuracy would provide the adequate challenge for the long kicks, while not depleting the ability of the kicker to make them in appropriate situations.
     
  11. Cheez

    Cheez TSO's 1,000,000th Poster

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    gowazzucougs - I've done you a favor. Here are the kicks from 2011 alone that were 54+

    Blair Walsh, Georgia, 56 yards - 13:50 left in the 3rd quarter vs. Coastal Carolina - W 59-0
    Bobby Zalud, Arkansas State, 56 yards - 0:36 left in the 3rd quarter vs. Memphis - W 47-3
    Caleb Sturgis, Florida, 55 yards - 0:06 left in the second quarter vs. Vanderbilt - W 26-21
    Trey Farquhar, Idaho, 55 yards - 0:00 left in the second quarter vs. San Jose State - W 32-29
    Michael Barbour, ECU, 54 yards - 5:48 left in the first quarter vs. Houston - L 48-3
    Grant Mahoney, Iowa State, 54 yards - 0:41 left in the second quarter vs. Iowa - W 44-41 3OT
    John Teague, Navy, 54 yards - 0:25 left in the second quarter vs. Delaware - W 40-17
    Giorgio Tavecchio, Cal, 54 yards - 9:40 left in the second quarter vs. Oregon - L 43-15
    Anthony Cantele, Kansas State, 54 yards - 6:07 left in the first quarter vs. Oklahoma - L 58-17

    Not even half of the kicks that are 54+ this year were in late half/game situations. Yet you are calling it more sim that they should be outlawed because "you don't see it". Well, here it is; proof that kicks 54+ dont only happen at end of half/game situations. Actually, it would appear that they occur more at other points in the game than they do in those end of half situations.

    Jayrah - lets go with your criteria too: 55+. Well, 2/4 this year that have occured were in the third quarter. Furthermore, they were the two that were on the + side of 55.
     
  12. Dru50

    Dru50 Still Chicago's #1 son

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    Geez - I see how it is Cheez. You get the commish power, and now I'm a non-entity to you.....:(
     
  13. Cheez

    Cheez TSO's 1,000,000th Poster

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    Sorry dru. I was in class when I typed up my responses, so I could not answer your questions. Just got home, but I am working on my lesson plan so I'm still not able to look it up.

    You are still #1 in my book! (y)
     
  14. gowazzucougs

    gowazzucougs WSU is better than UCLA

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    Cheez

    First, If this is an all member dynasty vote, if I get 5 or more votes this rule is getting implemented. If you get five or more votes the rule doesn't go into effect. If it is a tie, I believe we should seriously sit down and compromise on this issue. I believe at the moment I have 3 votes, so I need two more people to agree with my position.

    Second, in going through the field goals and when they occur why I do need every single one occur at the end of half, for my argument to have validity? That is an impossible proposition. There is always an exception to a general proposition. Going through the 54+, two occur when the team was blowing the opponent out. I believe five occurred at the end of halves, and two in normal game situations. Again I can look at when the next 10 kickers made their 50+ field goals.

    I believe my proposal is reasonable resolution in addressing this situation. It allows a team with a solid kicker to kick lengthy field goals, while acknowledging that kicks don't always go in. Because in this game if a team brings out its kicker, it is an automatic three points, unless Ice the Kicker is on.

    Another possible compromise, if you want to rely on statistics make your argument. I would agree to take the average number of made field goals from 50+ over the course of the past three seasons and say that number is the number of 50+ field goals a team is allowed to make. Because it is clear from statistics coaches don't have their kickers try 50+ field goals very often during the season. I don't want to go with number attempted because in real life kickers miss, and again kicking in this game is automatic. I personally believe this alternative is very restrictive because a 50 yard field goal is the same as a 60 yard field goal under this rule.

    As for your hypothetical, I am going for it, and I have no objections to my opponent going for it. In addition, under your hypothetical, there is a clear assumption your kicker is making it, and with this game if your kicker can kick a 60 yard field goal it is an automatic three points. If this is real life, I believe the team goes for it if it wants to win. In real life the coach doesn't kick it, and goes for it. If it is a 50 yard field goal, the coach probably kicks it.
     
  15. Cheez

    Cheez TSO's 1,000,000th Poster

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    1st - my screen only shows three total votes - 1 for yes and 2 for no.
    2nd - because that's the argument that you made. That it only occurs at the end of halves, therefore we should only allow it at the end of halves. Or, are you limiting long field goals more than what even your observations show? Also, only 4 occur at the end of halves - not 5.
    3rd - you just changed your argument by changing your definition of "normal game situations" to say that blowouts dont count either.
    4th - counting fg's is just as ridiculous as limiting them. how is a user supposed to know when they are going to need the long field goals?
    5th - See, this is where you and I differ. In that situation, I want the fg because I realize I'm probably only getting the ball one more time. i dont want to rely on getting the onside kick - take points where you can, don't leave them on the field.
     
  16. gowazzucougs

    gowazzucougs WSU is better than UCLA

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    I know at the moment I have one vote, but I have spoken to two others who I believe support my rule.

    Before I left worked I looked at when 54+ yard field goals were attempted I wasn't sure if it was four or five. I do not count the two that occurred in the blow outs because the risk/reward factor is non existent. When you are up 44 or more late in the third quarter what does it hurt to try, and see if your kicker can make it in game situations.

    As for limiting the number of kicks, you walked into that one. Your whole argument is based on statistics, and statistics are clear that a team only attempt 3-4 50+ field goals a season. And now the statistics doesn't help you. The teams with kickers with long legs don't always kick 50+ when the opportunity is presented. You just need to acknowledge 50+ should not be automatic and work with me on drafting a rule that addresses it. I am not asking to mess with the sliders.
     
  17. Cheez

    Cheez TSO's 1,000,000th Poster

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    Wrong. My argument is based on statistics, but also coaches' choice if you look at the hypothetical. The coaches' always have the option available to go for the three points. Whether they do or not is their choice.
     
  18. gowazzucougs

    gowazzucougs WSU is better than UCLA

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    You are making my point. In real life it is not an automatic 3 points. And the coach knows it. Any coach who knows their kicker never misses is kicking the FG over punting. In this game why punt when it is an automatic 3. My whole point is that there should be a reasonable chance for a miss FG and there isn't.
     
  19. Cheez

    Cheez TSO's 1,000,000th Poster

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    cougs - I've acknowledged time and time again that it is easy to kick long field goals. My issue is with your "rule" and "compromise". I feel that what you have proposed is more unrealistic than what we already have in the game.
     
  20. gowazzucougs

    gowazzucougs WSU is better than UCLA

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    Or hurts your team
     
  21. gowazzucougs

    gowazzucougs WSU is better than UCLA

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    Cheez

    What is frustrating, is that you have failed to suggest any real alternative. You just want to keep the status quo, even when you acknowledge there is a problem.
     
  22. Darkwing

    Darkwing One Nation Under God

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    Speaking of kicking remind me to talk to u about our league. I believe I kicked a 57 yarder with Basil (99 kick power) with a full kick meter and the ball hit the ground in the middle of the end zone. Unrealistic, I believe I saved the highlight of it too
     
  23. Jayrah

    Jayrah AllCougdUp.com Editor - A.M. avatar Guru

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    Ok. I don't see the same kicker twice on here. You kicked 5 55+ this season and many more last season. Ohio State kicked 4 55+ yarders this season. If we're going to limit how and when you can go for it we have to tone down how and when you can use your kicking ability. We could go look at 4th down attempts and get the same type of info you get for kicking. Teams do go for it on 4th quite a bitthese days, but we can't do it because we ruled it "unsim". Its not a fair playing field, and that's the real issue. Also, what are those kickers overall numbers that you brought up? Not 1 is perfect I bet. Your kicker is 17/17. OSU P is 29/30 with long of 63!!!!!! Sim?
     
  24. Bucs

    Bucs GT: ThruTheSmoke47

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    I personally dont have a problem with this, but if we are going to adjust it would seem easier just to lower kicking sliders then having to worry about a rule.
     
  25. Cheez

    Cheez TSO's 1,000,000th Poster

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    cougs, I would be saying the same thing if I had a walk-on kicker. Again, you are insinuating things about me that aren't true and it's really frustrating. I could say that you are against teams scoring points and it would have the exact same merit as this statement. It's really childish.

    The only "real alternative" I know of is to lower the accuracy slider. Again, it is only a partial fix though. So, yeah, I want to keep the status quo because as I have previously stated all other alternatives seem more unrealistic that what we have currently.
     

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