Recruiting Discussion

Discussion in 'The Experience' started by Geauxlden, Jul 2, 2009.

  1. Geauxlden

    Geauxlden Walk On

    Joined:
    May 21, 2009
    Messages:
    211
    Recruiting Discussion

    Since we seem to be discussing a few topics (which is great) I thought that I should throw this out there: I think that the 5 star recruit rule should be revisited after the game comes out.

    I know that the point of the rules is to allow the CPU a chance to sign good players, but, I don't think that you should have to win a national or conference championship in order to recruit 5 star players. Plus I think that the new "recruit against" feature may make things tougher if the CPU actually uses it.
     
  2. Archie Griffin

    Archie Griffin Walk On

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2009
    Messages:
    5,738
    It's EA, so recruiting will likely remain a joke, and we'll have to have rules. If we do it right, we'll have a shot at the #1 class, but so will the CPU.

    The five star thing in the past had to do with the number of five star recruits in each class. There are usually 30-45 of them per year, and we were capable of getting all of them, save maybe one or two. One team getting a huge class doesn't necessarily unbalance the game, but 12 teams doing this does. Within a couple of years, there are no more 85+ CPU teams, and we all have 96+ teams = no challenge left to be had.

    Once we get a look at a few classes, and sim a few seasons, we can get an idea what it will take to keep the CPU in the game, yet allow us to go after the guys we want.

    It's a delicate balance, but we'll figure it out. However, the new system is unlikely to be tougher than the old one.
     
  3. JOEDESIGNS

    JOEDESIGNS Walk On

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2009
    Messages:
    1,313
    Another recruiting thread...can we sticky a recruiting thread?:D
     
  4. Geauxlden

    Geauxlden Walk On

    Joined:
    May 21, 2009
    Messages:
    211
    Sorry, I totally missed the old one. Wasn't in the league then and by the looks of it, it turned into a discussion of in-breeding which I know nothing about.
     
  5. jello1717

    jello1717 "Those who stay will be champions." -- Bo

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2009
    Messages:
    13,617
    Good NCAA '10 recruiting analysis from Hellisan

    Anatomy of a Recruiting Class over on OS.
    It's only been 1 season of recruiting, but it's sounding like recruiting will be even easier this year than it was last year.(n) If so, then it's a good thing we have those recruiting restrictions.

    Have any of you with the game already looked into recruiting much yet? Another guy in that thread said he can't recruit for shit with Colorado (Hellisan's using Georgia) so maybe it's only too easy with studs like Georgia. Who knows?
     
  6. DatNDaz

    DatNDaz Walk On

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2009
    Messages:
    1,072
    Hellisan posted a season's-worth of recruiting experiences over at operation sports (maybe it's on here somewhere too, I didn't look). A good read. In the end his 9-win Georgia Bulldogs finished the year with 8 5*'s, 10 4*'s, and (obviously) the #1 rated class. Combine that with knowing how easy recruiting has always been and it's seeming likely that restrictions will be necessary.

    *Edit* Jello and I were apparently posting at the same time
     
  7. Shaun Mason

    Shaun Mason Keepin' it 1hunnah.

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2009
    Messages:
    24,902
    Featured Threads:
    4
    Recruiting seems to be biased heavily based on prestige (as it should be, IMO).

    I think the current rules are a pretty good starting point.

    I know as Army I won't be ABLE to get a 5 star recruit, so I don't have to worry for a few seasons.:)
     
  8. jms493

    jms493 Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2009
    Messages:
    8,905
    Thats good stuff Hellisan. Helps us that dont have the game yet......I wont feel so lost and have to learn everything from scratch!!
     
  9. jms493

    jms493 Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2009
    Messages:
    8,905
    I would agree it has always been able to get a top 5 recruiting class in NCAA when using a good team. Using Penn State for years it was always a joke recruiting against the cpu. They should make it crazy hard and really make you earn your recruits!
     
  10. Geauxlden

    Geauxlden Walk On

    Joined:
    May 21, 2009
    Messages:
    211
    I have the game and it has been pretty easy to recruit with LSU, but I think that is a reflection of real life. I'm not as far along as Helli because I have played the games instead of simming, but through 2 weeks I had 2 5* (both Jucos), a 4*, and 2 3* commits.

    What I don't understand is why the cpu is so stingy with giving out offers. I scrolled through the top 100 and there were a handful of guys with zero offers. There were at least another 25-30 guys with less than 3 offers, and only another 10 or so had 5 or more offers. I'll sim the rest of this season to see how things come out.
     
  11. jmillhimes

    jmillhimes Walk On

    Joined:
    May 18, 2009
    Messages:
    1,065
    This is not good...
     
  12. Geauxlden

    Geauxlden Walk On

    Joined:
    May 21, 2009
    Messages:
    211
    We will have to put together some type of rules, but remember that both Helli's and my results are from single player offline dynasties. Most likely there will be some serious competition for recruits in our online dynasties. We just have to leave something on the table for the CPU.
     
  13. jello1717

    jello1717 "Those who stay will be champions." -- Bo

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2009
    Messages:
    13,617
    I agree. I do have one worry about the recruiting restrictions, however. It sounds like it'll be easy with stud programs, and hard with scrub programs (which is how it should be). However, if it becomes easier as the dynasty progresses, then we could have teams like Army bringing in classes equal to Florida and aOSU due to the recruiting restrictions.

    All Army has to do is get to the point where they can sign 2 5*s and abra-cadabra, presto-chango, they now have a recruiting class equal to Florida. Without restrictions, this wouldn't be the case because Army would be struggling to bring in 2 5*s while Florida is easily signing 8 5*s, but since Florida isn't allowed to sign 8, then they and Army are both bringing in 2 5*s.

    Does that make sense? It feels like I'm kind of just rambling.
     
  14. Archie Griffin

    Archie Griffin Walk On

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2009
    Messages:
    5,738
    This might be one the the restrictions we put in place. We typically offer a ton right away. If we could only offer so many per week, perhaps we could slow things down.

    But that doesn't help the ease issue.

    I simmed two seasons as my TB squad (1-star prestige). I got mostly 1 and two star guys, but nearly half were over 70, and few were really low. It looks like we can build a player out of almost any recruit = not good.

    We may have to get creative this year. It looks like freshman classes, even if we would stick to the old system, are going to be much better. I think the top guys are about the same, but my guess is they raised the middle.

    We'll need a lot of sim work to hash this out.

    On an upside, the game play seems tougher, and feels pretty solid. We get some good settings, and I think we'll have a great first season.

    AG
     
  15. Geauxlden

    Geauxlden Walk On

    Joined:
    May 21, 2009
    Messages:
    211
    This is how things looked at the end of the regular season:

    Column 1
    Rank Team 5* 4* 3*
    1 LSU 3 7 3
    2 Tex 4 3 2
    3 tOSU 2 4 6
    4 Wisky 0 9 3
    5 PSU 3 4 1
    6 Mia 0 9 0
    7 UGA 1 6 0
    8 Tenn 3 2 0
    9 Neb 1 5 1
    10 USC 1 4 3
     
  16. DatNDaz

    DatNDaz Walk On

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2009
    Messages:
    1,072

    I'm with you on this. The problem with the restrictions we used with 09 was that you pretty much knew ahead of time what your class was going to look like. Not only that, but limiting the top teams (to one 5* for example) makes it easier for the lower ranked user teams, which further reduces the variation in classes. Head to head recruiting battles weren't as necessary either.

    We can use a rewards system to give successful teams access to more top recruits, but that gets a bit complicated (although its not unmanageable). And it still has that "predetermined" feel.

    Sorry for those who have already heard my argument on this, but we talked about this in another thread a month or two back, and I'm convinced the answer is to somehow limit the pool of recruits we have access to (my idea was to only allow us to go after guys with odd-numbered rankings, a 50% reduction, although we could find ways to take out 25%, 40%, whatever the right number is). The problem people saw with that is when a team like Army gets that one 5* guy who's interested and he's #12 overall, it's frustrating that they can't go after him. If that's a real problem (and I'm not completely convinced it is) maybe we do something like grant 1 exception for 4* and lower prestige teams.

    Bottom line is that I feel that anything we do to limit recruiting that doesn't also somehow limit the pool just creates diluted recruiting competition and parody. We can engineer solutions (like the rewards system) and the results come out fine, but it's more complicated and it still feels easy to hit your limits.
     
  17. Archie Griffin

    Archie Griffin Walk On

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2009
    Messages:
    5,738
    It seems like we have two problems:

    1 - How do we reign ourselves in, so we don't end up with 12 99's and no other team over 80? (This has killed many a dynasty).

    2 - How do we get the guys we want, and allow a level of success (and failure) that feels like we have accomplished something (or not)?

    The two problems are in direct opposition to each other, and this is why no system feels right.

    * If we do not restrict, then we end up with seasons in which only the user games matter. This is absolutely true. We can keep cranking up the difficulty to account for the diminished CPU competition, but that only makes the game less realistic, more robotic, and much less fun. By the third year, there will be no CPU team rated above a B+, and the B+'s will be rare. We, however, will all be A's and A+'s. If we make a mistake, it should be on the side of restricting too much. We can always loosen it up. But one class in which we take everything - that will stay with us for seasons.

    * Recruiting needs to be more fun. Dat's right. The old system felt very much like ordering a combo meal. You just kind of step up and fill in the spaces. I Think it accomplished the goal of keeping us in check, but variety, and up-and-down recruiting years weren't really possible. Now, we should keep in mind that so far, we have only argued for the right to have up years every year. No one has proposed a system that has actual failure built into it. Show me a down recruiting year. I've never seen one.

    Maybe Dat's system is worth a look. Now, my issue is that I'm not going to pass on a guy who wants to play for me just because he has a certain number next to him. There has to be an out. If Ohio's best football player is the top of my list, and I'm at the top of his, I need to be able to take that player. There has to be a way. Now, if I have to make sacrifices, or if I have to choose one guy over another because I can't take both, I understand. I just can't see an arbitrary numbers-related system alone working. Maybe we could integrate pipeline states, caliber, or something else into the mix, allow for some outs that way.
     
  18. Geauxlden

    Geauxlden Walk On

    Joined:
    May 21, 2009
    Messages:
    211
    Here are the final standings:
    Column 1
    Rank Team 5* 4* 3*
    1 LSU 5 16 4
    2 Tex 4 6 13
    3 tOSU 3 7 13
    4 UF 2 8 15
    5 USC 1 12 10
    6 UGA 2 11 7
    7 Tenn 3 7 8
    8 PSU 3 8 6
    9 OU 3 6 12
    10 Mich 2 8 12


    I think that limiting when scholarships can be offered my need to be given serious consideration. For whatever reason, the CPU doesn't jump on kids like they should. The #1 recruit in the nation was a offseason addition and he didn't get an offer from a CPU team until offseason wk 5. Other new additions that I recruited didn't get offers until wk 3 or 4. Most of them ended up signing with me, which is why my 4* number jumped so much.
     
  19. Archie Griffin

    Archie Griffin Walk On

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2009
    Messages:
    5,738
    Imagine multiplying that class by 12, and ask what's left over. One team can dominate. 12 teams can obliterate. This is what we're up against.

    AG
     
  20. Geauxlden

    Geauxlden Walk On

    Joined:
    May 21, 2009
    Messages:
    211
    After testing it out for myself, I believe that some restriction has to be put into place, I'm just not sure what that restriction is. I do think that my numbers would look different if there was some actual human competition. Maybe while we are waiting for rosters and the slider patch, we need to do a test season together. Sim all of the games, just let guys recruit against each other with a rough draft of restrictions and see what happens.
     
  21. Shaun Mason

    Shaun Mason Keepin' it 1hunnah.

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2009
    Messages:
    24,902
    Featured Threads:
    4
    Here is a quick idea:

    We have regional boundries.
    Using Ohio State as an example.
    1. Ohio is free for all.
    2. Pipeline states have some cost associated with them, albeit minor.
    3. Close states that are not pipelines (Illinois) have a cost, more than pipeline.
    4. State way out of region (Cali, FL) will have a high cost associtated with them.

    Not sure how to assign possible "points" or costs, but I think that is a way to limit classes. The huge football states will have an advantage, but that is realistic, IMO.
     
  22. jmillhimes

    jmillhimes Walk On

    Joined:
    May 18, 2009
    Messages:
    1,065

    Right. Look at Texas for a prime example
     
  23. Geauxlden

    Geauxlden Walk On

    Joined:
    May 21, 2009
    Messages:
    211
    I kinda like this. Here's my take on it:

    -Let teams recruit whoever they want in their home states. That way like Shaun said the power states will have the advantage that they possess in real life. Also some of the smaller states will have good kids show up in some years.

    Here are the 5*/4* numbers for our home states based off of 1 year in my dynasty sim:

    Ala 1/12; Col 0/3; FLa 3/18; Ga 3/11; Ind 0/2; La 3/12; Mich 0/4; Ny 0/1; Ohio 4/12; Wisc 0/1

    Its not a slam dunk that we'll sign all of those kids.

    -Since there are 3 schools sharing Fla, allow those guys to take 1 5* and 2 4* from either Texas or California. Based off of the numbers they can afford the hit. Tx 8/26; Cal 8/30. These states get raided by out of state schools irl.

    -Allow teams to pick a total of 1 5* and 5 4* recruits from their pipeline states. That way schools like ND, Wisc, or Colorado have a shot to sign some quality kids that may not frequently pop up in their home states.

    -Only allow teams to sign 5 or 4* kids from outside their home or pipeline states if the kid has that school in his initial top 3.

    -Allow teams to sign any 3* that has them in the top 10.

    -No restriction on 2 or 1*

    -Limit the total number of signees to seniors + 3.

    -Only 10 offers can go out in the first three weeks of the season.

    -No new offers can be extended to recruits in offseason recruiting week 1.
     
  24. Shaun Mason

    Shaun Mason Keepin' it 1hunnah.

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2009
    Messages:
    24,902
    Featured Threads:
    4
    I don't like the idea of giving the FL schools extra picks because there are three.

    That is part of being a FL team.:)

    Just like if Texas, Texas Tech, Texas A&M, TCU were in the league. Fight for you state guys, don't expect anything extra.:)
     
  25. Archie Griffin

    Archie Griffin Walk On

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2009
    Messages:
    5,738
    I like where this is going. We're just kind of throwing stuff out there right now, but it's good stuff. I agree with shaun that there should be no favors given based on users in a certain region. We should encourage competition. I'll have to compete with Michigan and ND, and that's who I should be competing with. FSU, Fla, Miami duking it out should enhance the fun of the season.

    We're moving in a good direction here. Let's keep it going.
     

Share This Page