SIM 101: Volume 4

Discussion in 'Hard Knocks' started by NeuroticTruth, Nov 13, 2012.

  1. NeuroticTruth

    NeuroticTruth dont know , dont care

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    SIM 101
    Volume 4
    Topic 2: Blitzing
    Topic 3: HB Draws
    Topic 4: 4th Down Conversion Attempts
    • How often do you see them attempted?
    • In what situations do other users attempt a 4th down conversion?
    • In what situations would YOU attempt a 4th down conversion?
    • What limitations do you hold yourself to with them?
    • Do you feel they're over used?
    • Do you feel there should be a general limitation to them? If yes, what?

     
  2. NeuroticTruth

    NeuroticTruth dont know , dont care

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    How often do you see them attempted?
    - Not very. There may be a few in a game, but generally they're not outside of a situation I feel that it would be warranted.

    In what situations do other users attempt a 4th down conversion?
    - Generally people use them trailing in the 4th quarter, although I have seen them used in the 3rd quarter when someone is trailing by 14+ points. I've also seen them used in the 1st half if someone has a 4th and 1 or 4th and inches and they're on my side of the 50.

    In what situations would YOU attempt a 4th down conversion?
    - I tend to only use them when I have to. I've never used them in the 1st half, as I feel 99% of the time I'd be better off just punting / kicking a FG. I generally only go for it on 4th down when I feel that its necessary to extend the game (IE: if I dont convert this 4th down the game is essentially over). I'm the kind of person that would rather end the drive in a punt or FG then take the risk of giving someone great field position.

    What limitations do you hold yourself to with them?
    - I limit myself to using them only when its necessary to extend the game. You'll also never see me attempt a 4th down conversion in the 1st half of a game.

    Do you feel they're over used?
    - I've never had someone overly attempt 4th down conversions against me. I have had times though were I feel that it was used in a wrong situation.

    Do you feel there should be a general limitation to them? If yes, what?
    - I'll say yes, but only based on the following statement. I've had people pause the game and ask me "Can I go for it?". If you feel that you have to ask permission to attempt a 4th down conversion; then, in my opinion, you probably shouldnt be going for it.
     
  3. PAgamer07

    PAgamer07 We're the ship without a storm

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    If I am playing someone I know and someone who plays sim, there is no need for rules. For instance, my game against Shaun Mason I was in a 4th and 6 from like his 38. Instead of taking the long FG try, I went for the fake FG and Im sure he had no problems with it.

    However... with guys new to the site and guys who don't really know each other, you need to keep the gray out of it. It needs to be black and white. The rules we used in the redshirts I felt were perfectly sim and acceptable:

    1. You can go for it on 4th down on any distance on your opponents side of the field unless it falls in the below categories.
    2. If you are winning by 21 or more you cannot go for it on 4th down at any time.
    3. If losing by 21 or more, you can go for it on your side of the field if 4th and 1 or less.
    4. In the 4th quarter if down by 14 or more you can go for it at any time.
     
  4. Shaun Mason

    Shaun Mason Somebody you used to know.

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    I actually had this conversation with ZCar352 last night. In that game during the first quarter, he was on his 40 or so and was facing a 4th down and 4. He said, "I'm going to go for this".

    The site rules restrict that play, because many new guys will make the aggressive play EVERY TIME. Giving gray allows a justification for their aggressiveness. When you play with people you know and trust you understand that he was making the decision based on being in the proverbial "no mans land" of his kicker and punter. I told him to ensure in the future his opponent is fine with the call, because some people would not be. I however, am typically fine with calls like that as long as it is situational behavior and not habitual behavior.
     
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  5. Jshaver

    Jshaver Banned

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    • How often do you see them attempted?
    • I haven't attempted any this year

    • In what situations do other users attempt a 4th down conversion?
    • 4th and short from the 40 and in... Probably because there are not confident in their Kickers ability to hit a 58-55 yard Field goal

    • In what situations would YOU attempt a 4th down conversion?
    • If I went for it on 4th, I would only go for it in a few situations...
    • 1) if I'm losing late in the game
    • 2) if its 4th and 1 or less inside the 40 and I can't make a long FG
    • 3) if its 4th and 1 or less and I'm inside the 40 and I'm trying to ice the game away and not give the ball back to my opponent

    • What limitations do you hold yourself to with them?
    • I rarely use them

    • Do you feel they're over used?
    • If there are black and white rules in place, I feel like some people stay within the rules but still stretch them a bit... I mean most NFL teams never go for it on 4th down, so, I think that should reflect here as well.

    • Do you feel there should be a general limitation to them? If yes, what?
    • See above... I would say any 4th and 1 or less from the 40 and closer would be acceptable... However, we can't have guys going for every single 4th and 1 from the 40 on in either... Like anything else, I think people just need to use common sense when going for it and not going for it.
     
  6. PAgamer07

    PAgamer07 We're the ship without a storm

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    Out of curiosity, did you stop him? I actually like to encourage guys to go for it because I have a lot of confidence in my defense :)

    Also... did you have a problem with me going for it in our game?
     
  7. SteamboatReb

    SteamboatReb Walk On

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    I ONLY DO IT WHEN I AM BEHIND 2 SCORES LATE FROM REASONABLE FIELD POSITION & WHEN THE CPU CHEATS AND MAKES ME MAD AND I COUNTER WITH SOME GOOD, OLD FASHIONED, STINKY CHEESE.
     
  8. biggcoug65

    biggcoug65 49er for Life

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    Topic 4: 4th Down Conversion Attempts
    • How often do you see them attempted?
    I rarely see them attempted unless it is very late in the game and I am ahead.
    • In what situations do other users attempt a 4th down conversion?
    usually late in the game when I am ahead, in no man's land, or 4th and very short near the goalline.
    • In what situations would YOU attempt a 4th down conversion?
    I rarely attempt them, but it will usually come either in no man's land or deep in my opponent's territory. I have sometimes attempted a 4th down when winning deep in opponent's territory strictly to get a 1st down to run out the clock rather than put more points on the board, but in those situations it is a run call.
    • What limitations do you hold yourself to with them?
    I generally hold myself to real life situations, at least how I view them.
    • Do you feel they're over used?
    No, not in our league, I feel it is about right.
    • Do you feel there should be a general limitation to them? If yes, what?
    I think what we have in place is ok, but I think whatever the case may be, it shouldn't be over-used or abused if it is changed.
     
  9. Shaun Mason

    Shaun Mason Somebody you used to know.

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    No, he got across the line on a short pass. Also, I had no issue you going for it besides me not expecting it.:) A half a second longer to throw and that was a TD.
     
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  10. uagrad90

    uagrad90 Walk On

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    How often do you see them attempted?
    - Very rarely. The few I have seen have been because the other team was down more than a score in the 4tyh Qtr. Other than that I have not seen any run.​

    In what situations do other users attempt a 4th down conversion?
    - Only time I have seen them is in the 4th quarter trailing by more than a score or very very late and a FG will not tie or win it.

    In what situations would YOU attempt a 4th down conversion?
    - If it is very very late in the game and I need more than a FG to tie or its the 4th Qtr and I am down by more than a couple scores (14+) and need points every possession to even have slim chance and if the distance is not crazy. My offense is not geared to pickup 4th and 15, just not going to happen. Now 4th and 2 where is my battering ram.

    What limitations do you hold yourself to with them?
    - Outside the situations I listed above in the 4th Qtr I am punting. I would rather pin you down and see if I can force you into a mistake instead giving you the ball in excellent field position.

    Do you feel they're over used?
    - No since I have only seen them in the 4th in desperation times..

    Do you feel there should be a general limitation to them? If yes, what?
    - I thought the TSO and HK rules pretty much had this covered.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2012
  11. NeuroticTruth

    NeuroticTruth dont know , dont care

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    There are some general rules in place, but I want to know your opinion.
     
  12. NeuroticTruth

    NeuroticTruth dont know , dont care

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    Would you feel differently about 4th down attempts if people were using fake punts / field goals more often?
     
  13. uagrad90

    uagrad90 Walk On

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    Oh ok. Honestly I would like the ability on 4th and 1 or less past the 50 having the ability to go, would add suspense to the game. There are have been times I punted when I had 4th and inches in the 2nd Qtr I would be willing to go. I would not mind adding you could go on 4th past the 50 in the 1st three Qtrs provided you were trying a fake punt or FG. Alot more risk for the reward.
     
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  14. uagrad90

    uagrad90 Walk On

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    I'm always in favor of adding more game planning and thinking since I am one of the users that are challenged on the sticks.
     
  15. ChaoticUT

    ChaoticUT Life is Orange and White!

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    I completely agree with this.

    Here's a great article I read the other day about Chip Kelly and gambling on 4th. http://www.thepostgame.com/blog/men...chip-kelly-can-spark-moneyball-revolution-nfl

    However, in real life the NFL is more conservative and since I try to replicated what I see on Sundays I definitely will kick more than I would really want.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2012
  16. NeuroticTruth

    NeuroticTruth dont know , dont care

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    I wouldnt mind it if people used more fake FGs / punts. Bob pulled one on me last season, it was a great call tbqh. I think a lot of people just sell out and do FG block or Punt Return Mid and dont even respect the fakes anymore.
     
  17. HAL9100

    HAL9100 TSO's Resident Antagonist

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    This is a big thing to keep in mind. Going on 4th down in the NFL is much rarer than in NCAA.

    I haven't had any issues with people going for it on 4th down so I'm not going to get into this one. Just know that it needs to be rare or if needed.
     
  18. OMlawdog

    OMlawdog Going full Cheeze

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    I agree, I think if it is 4th and 1 and you are on the otherside of the 50 yard line, you should be able to go for it.

    If you are on the 40 yard line and its 4th and 3, I think that is fair game as well. Of course this could be abused, but overall I think the 4th down rules are a little restrictive.
     
  19. NeuroticTruth

    NeuroticTruth dont know , dont care

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    Would you have an issue with someone going for it on lets say... 4th and 6 from their own 42 down 14 with 2 mins left in the 3rd (lets say the score is 31-17 if that makes a difference)? If no, what if the score was 17-3.
     
  20. HAL9100

    HAL9100 TSO's Resident Antagonist

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    While I personally wouldn't go for it in that scenario, I wouldn't have a problem with someone doing it.
     
  21. BobJr

    BobJr To each their own

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    The reason we have 4th down rules is to keep the grey out of it..

    I have thought about opening it up some on them. It's just like anything else...moderation is the problem.
     
  22. thebouncer24

    thebouncer24 Cheese Like MG

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    I just use brains. Actually one of the main reasons I won the madden tournament this year, 3 points is a lot in a close game or even a low scoring game. Why not take the 3 that you can get and move on. I will kick the FG every time unless it's late in the game and I need a TD.

    Now when it's in the 'no man's land' aka no faith in your kicker. I am fine with going for it. Anything on your side of the field going for it is just dumb. If you want to go for it and I stop you I'll personally thank you for the points after the game.
     
  23. Cimmy24

    Cimmy24 Candy Ass Self

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    Here is my take on 4th downs.

    They're ok in certain situations and I think we've outlined that very well in the guidelines. I don't run them unless I am down late and I need a score. That is common knowledge. There are times, like stated by Shaun above, where your K is out of range, but it is close....those are situational in my opinion and I think against certain people they are acceptable, given the score and time of the game.

    Punting the ball on 4th down when the game is close early or if I have the ball, the lead, and am at or further then midfield are all to me respect situations. If I can't convert in 3 plays, you deserve the ball.
     
  24. NeuroticTruth

    NeuroticTruth dont know , dont care

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    So how would you feel if I went for it on 4th and 2 or less every time I was on your side of the 50? I'm not talking about no-mans land, I'm talking about anywhere on your side of the 50. Lets say, 4th and 2 from your 21? Would you be pissed? I'm at worst risking you having good field position if I do it outside the 30.
     
  25. thebouncer24

    thebouncer24 Cheese Like MG

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    pissed? no.
    if you can pick up every single one of those then whatever, but i'm willing to bet you can't pick up everyone single one of those then I would just hope that my O can make those missed points hurt.

    Look I'm not saying go for it, if that's what people are getting at then stop listening to me. I do not promote going for it on 4th down unless it's late in the game and the situation answers.

    All I'm really trying to promote is kick the ball. Trust me, you will feel so dumb if you lose by a FG when you could have just kicked the ball and moved on.

    Again it's a respect thing and that's why you won't see it happen in among-st the HK Brothers. If you stop my offense 3 times in a row, my reward to you is kicking it to you. It's a respect thing.

    I know I am all over the place on this post as my mind is running 100 mph, but to wrap it up. Respect others, you get stopped 3 times and facing 4th down. Do the Right Thing!
     

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