SIM 101: Volume 5

Discussion in 'Hard Knocks' started by NeuroticTruth, Nov 16, 2012.

  1. NeuroticTruth

    NeuroticTruth dont know , dont care

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    SIM 101
    Volume 5
    Topic 2: Blitzing
    Topic 3: HB Draws
    Topic 5: Pass Distribution
    • Should a WR lead every team in receptions? If yes, what if its the slot receiver?
    • Would you be "OK" with a TE leading a team in receptions?
    • Would you be "OK" with a HB leading a team in receptions?
    • Do you feel WR1 or WR2 should by the #1 read on the majority of plays?
    • Where do TEs / HBs fall in your chain of progression?
    • Not including screens, are you "OK" with a TE / HB being the #1 read on a pass play? If yes, how often?
    • Do you feel that HBs and TEs are thrown to too much?

     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2012
  2. NeuroticTruth

    NeuroticTruth dont know , dont care

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    Should a WR lead every team in receptions? If yes, what if its the slot receiver?
    - I expect 95% of teams to have a WR leading the team in receptions. That being said, I would not consider it "SIM" if it was any other receiver then WR1 or WR2.

    Would you be "OK" with a TE leading a team in receptions?
    - On the rare occasion that its an elite TE, then yes. If you have a 70 OVR TE leading your team in receptions, you're probably abusing some plays, or lining him up at WR (which essentially goes back to the slot receiver question).

    Would you be "OK" with a HB leading a team in receptions?
    - In no circumstance would I ever be "OK" with a HB leading a team in receptions. Outside of a handful of plays, HBs should only be thrown to as a late checkdown.

    Do you feel WR1 or WR2 should by the #1 read on the majority of plays?
    - For the most part, yes. If you have an elite TE, that may cut into things a bit in terms of targets, but in my opinion, either WR1 or WR2 should be your first read (if not both) on the majority of plays.

    Where do TEs / HBs fall in your chain of progression?
    - While this does depend on the play and formation, generally speaking, my HB is usually my atleast my #3 or #4 progression on the majority of plays. TE wise, with having a TE like Graham, there are a few plays where he'll be my #1 (mainly out of shotgun where he is lined up as a wideout), outside of that hes probably my #3. I try to use him as a safety valve in plays where hes not the primary target.

    Not including screens, are you "OK" with a TE / HB being the #1 read on a pass play? If yes, how often?
    - Outside of screens, there are very few if any plays where the HB should be the #1 read. I'm more "OK" with it if you're talking TE though, but again, that too should be limited.

    Do you feel that HBs and TEs are thrown to too much?
    - TEs more then HBs. I generally dont feel the "problem" lies with HBs so much as I do TEs. While I do feel the elite TE's should have a bit more leeway in terms of expectations of receptions, that shouldn't be an excuse for over using them. I have probably fallen into that category at times being the type of team / scheme I run. It was worse for me in Season 1 but I've opened up a bit and tried to lay back off Graham in Season 2.
     
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  3. Jshaver

    Jshaver Banned

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    • Should a WR lead every team in receptions? If yes, what if its the slot receiver?
    • Most of the time yes... (see below)
    • Would you be "OK" with a TE leading a team in receptions?
    • Not an issue if you've got a bonified STUD TE... Vernon Davis, Antonio Gates, Jimmy Graham, Jason Witten etc etc... Like you said though, if you have some 70 ovr TE, that is just fast, I'd have a slight problem with it.
    • Would you be "OK" with a HB leading a team in receptions?
    • I believe LeSean McCoy has led the Eagles for a few years... Marhsall Faulk and Reggie Bush had over 100 receptions in a Season I believe... In Madden though, I wouldn't expect a HB to lead the team in receptions... In rare circumstances with players like I've listed, I wouldn't have a real problem with it though.
    • Do you feel WR1 or WR2 should by the #1 read on the majority of plays?
    • I would assume so
    • Where do TEs / HBs fall in your chain of progression?
    • for the team I'm using now, Packers, my TE is my 3rd or 4th read unless I'm looking to go to him based on the play or how the Defense has been playing him... HB, for me, is never the primary option except on screen passes and if just usually a check down for me.
    • Not including screens, are you "OK" with a TE / HB being the #1 read on a pass play? If yes, how often?.
    • I think it all depends on the type of players you have... Like I said, 49'ers #1 read is probably Vernon Davis on every pass play because he's a matchup nightmare... I can't really see why your HB would be your #1 read though... MAYBE on a wheel route out of the backfield to exploit something you've seen in your opponents Defense earlier in the game?
    • Do you feel that HBs and TEs are thrown to too much?
    • I haven't experienced anyone force feeding their TE or HB, so, no.
    I think this really comes down to the type of team you have. As I said above, if you've got a STUD TE, I don't think its unusual for him to have a ton of receptions and targets on the year... Same thing could be said with your HB, however, throwing to your HB all the time has always been deemed a little "cheesy"... The other side of that though, could be checking down to your HB allot because your opponent is taking away every Deep with 8 man coverages...
     
  4. HAL9100

    HAL9100 TSO's Resident Antagonist

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    Basically took the words out of my mouth. Some people throw to their RBs too much, but league-wide TE is the bigger issue.

    Also, when talking about pass distribution, you're not just talking about reads or TE/RB targeting. You're talking about overusing any target. I know I struggle with this since Blackmon is by far my most reliable target, but in general, you don't want any player to ever have greater than 30% of your team's completions. And 30% is really for the top receivers in the league. A lot of us need to do better at spreading the ball around to numerous players.
     
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  5. NeuroticTruth

    NeuroticTruth dont know , dont care

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    Very very true. The questions are focused more around the TE / HBs, but I 100% agree with that as well. You dont really see to much of that outside of maybe one or two guys with the WRs as much, but it doesnt make it any less important.

    I also wouldnt consider it "spreading it around" if you throw the ball 4 players a game and 3 of them are your HB, TE, and WR1. That may just me being picky though.
     
  6. HAL9100

    HAL9100 TSO's Resident Antagonist

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    McCoy led the Eagles in receptions in 2010, but other than that year he's always been 4th or 5th on the Eagles in receptions. Bush had 88 receptions(his career high) in his rookie season but a lot of that came with him lining up in the slot. In Faulk's prime, he was averaging about 80 receptions a year, but never got higher than 87(the year the Rams won the Superbowl).

    And really, these are the exceptions that are very good receivers that play RB. There's not many of these guys in the NFL.
     
  7. Jshaver

    Jshaver Banned

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    WR Greg Jennings - 45 rec - 773 yards - 5 td
    WR Jordy Nelson - 44 rec - 849 yards - 7 td
    TE JerMichael Finely - 34 rec - 452 yards - 13 td
    HB Leon Washington - 26 rec - 257 yards - 4 td

    ^ that ok?
     
  8. thebouncer24

    thebouncer24 Cheese Like MG

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    I do have a problem with both of your statements. When you are saying 'elite' or 'stud' TE. I feel you guys are using real life version and not considering that we are in the 2nd season of Madden. Just as quick as Gronk and Graham became elite TEs, some TE on madden could as well. What about rookies or TE's that just progress fast. They can't be elite because the real life version of them is either not a star or non-existent. I'm not all for OVR in this game either as it changes for whatever scheme you are. So who's to say that any rated TE can't perform a higher rated TE. I go off of the few attributes for each position that I consider who is better than someone else.

    Now with all that said HBs should be limited in the passing attack, although I can see it being used more in certain games because of high pass rush. They should seldom be a number 1 option nor should they be the 2nd read. Check downs are the prime for HBs, minus the screens.
     
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  9. NeuroticTruth

    NeuroticTruth dont know , dont care

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    Ray Rice led the Ravens with 76 receptions in 2011, 2nd in 2010 with 63, and again led the team in 2009 with 78 receptions.

    For the elite backs, its possible for this to happen in the NFL. This is something though that I think isnt realistically able to be reflected in Madden. In the confines of the game, it just doesnt play out like it would in real life, which is why I have a problem with it. Not that I dont think its realistic for it to happen, just because I dont think it fits the game well.
     
  10. NeuroticTruth

    NeuroticTruth dont know , dont care

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    I'm more than OK with that personally.

    OVR's this year are a bit skewed, so I understand what you're saying. At the same time, people shouldnt be grabbing some garbage rookie TE who has 90 SPD and throw to him 15 times a game, abuse certain routes, and then use the excuse "Oh hes a rookie, but hes going to be a stud". Thats not how it works.
     
  11. Jshaver

    Jshaver Banned

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    They could just user their SS and jump the TE like I did to you with Jimmy Graham :D
     
  12. HAL9100

    HAL9100 TSO's Resident Antagonist

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    Even with how quickly Gronk has come on, he has never led the Patriots in receptions. That's why it's more about distribution. Jimmy Graham in 2011 is the only TE I know of that has ever led a team in receptions. And Graham is narrowly #2 on the Saints in the 2012 season right now.

    No one is saying that people shouldn't throw to TEs. The distribution of it is out of control though, imo. When I looked a few weeks back, we had 14 teams with a TE or RB leading their team in receptions. That doesn't match up with realistic stats. People under-use their WRs and over-use their TEs and RBs.
     
  13. Shaun Mason

    Shaun Mason Somebody you used to know.

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    Something that people miss is this: good running backs get a lot of receptions because they are the safety valve for a quarterback. In Madden, people typically don't check down because down field is so easy.
     
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  14. Shaun Mason

    Shaun Mason Somebody you used to know.

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    To expound: my experience is that if a HB is leading his team in receptions, the user has an over reliance on screen passes or the defense is blitzing too much.
     
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  15. NeuroticTruth

    NeuroticTruth dont know , dont care

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    I agree with this 100%. I think a lot of the negativity about throwing to HBs stem from how poorly they used be covered out of the backfield (which has improved greatly over the last two releases). That being said though its not completely fixed yet, as there are still a few plays that just dont play out well with HB coverage.

    That being said, the problem I see with HBs and their receptions in Madden, is that when users typically throw to them its out of designed plays where they are their #1 read, not as a checkdown. If they were used in Madden like they are generally used in the NFL (as more of a checkdown), I wouldnt have as big of an issue with it.
     
  16. HAL9100

    HAL9100 TSO's Resident Antagonist

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    My ideal distribution:

    WR1: 25-30%
    WR2: 20-25%
    WR3: 15%
    TE1: 15%
    WR4: 5-10%
    RB1: 5-10%
    All others: ~5%
     
  17. NeuroticTruth

    NeuroticTruth dont know , dont care

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    Yeah, thats pretty close to what I would think too (even though I guarantee you I'm not even close to it personally). I wouldnt mind it if the TE was a bit higher then 15%, as long as the %'s dont come away from WR1.
     
  18. thebouncer24

    thebouncer24 Cheese Like MG

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    that's true. I completely agree with not having a TE as your leading receiver. All I was trying to get across is it's hard to say who is elite in Madden season 2. Hard to say that Jared Cook can't have a lot of receptions due to him not being elite IRL. This is all an example, he is my 3rd in receptions and 4th in targets, I am not calling him elite in any way, but who's to say he can't have as many receptions as other TEs because he isn't 'elite'. That's the only point i'm trying to get across. I completely agree your Wide Receiver should lead your team in receptions. Just wasn't agreeing with the category of elite that is all.
     
  19. HAL9100

    HAL9100 TSO's Resident Antagonist

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    I agree that it's hard to draw that line. Especially since no TE in Madden 13 will ever become elite unless you use them a lot.
     
  20. thebouncer24

    thebouncer24 Cheese Like MG

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    So just because he is a rookie with 90 speed, that separates him from Vernon Davis how? or any other TE that has just under 90 speed. Let's look at James Hanna for Dal. He is an 89 speed and he has been great. Is he considered elite? can he have more receptions and be ok with it? I am not attacking anyone, nor am I saying bob over uses Hanna as I don't have time to look at stats just saying from what I remember putting in stats he has had a good year. Just trying to clarify where this 'elite' line is

    Now, don't get me wrong, I don't care if you have a 60 speed TE or a 99 speed TE, absolutely no tolerance for abusing routes, and I also agree with you that they should no way be a leading receiver.
     
  21. thebouncer24

    thebouncer24 Cheese Like MG

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    but you don't have to use them a lot for say. But yes you are understanding my point, if you like your TE why not use him. Why can't you he be used as an 'elite' TE. If I have faith in my TE to make a catch I am going to go to him. Now again don't get me wrong, my TE is never my first read. He has been my 2nd read though as I see what is coming at the line. If there is a blitz he can quickly become my 1st read seeing as normally the blitz is coming from a LB'er that should be covering the TE.

    I am not encouraging overuse of TE's I am just simply playing devils advocate. I can gladly say I don't overuse my TE due to 3rd in rec and 4th in targets.
     
  22. thebouncer24

    thebouncer24 Cheese Like MG

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    ok guys, keep the convo going. I'm heading to class, I'll be back. Don't think because I am not replying you win the debate :)

    again I am not trying piss anyone off, nor am I saying it is ok for TEs leading in receptions, again just the whole 'elite' line is throwing me off. I am sure I am looking way too much into it, but oh well.
     
  23. uagrad90

    uagrad90 Walk On

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    Should a WR lead every team in receptions? If yes, what if its the slot receiver?
    - In general I would say yes a WR should be your leading receiver. But I also look at distribution and if your TE leads and has 38 receptions and the next two a WR and they have 36 and 31 receptions each that does not concern me. I take into account your style of offense. If you 3 and 4 wr on the field at all times then I would expect your WR to lead the team in catches. If you are a more power run focused team that has 2 TE's on the field many times then I kinda expect your TE to have many more catches. But if your leading receiver is your TE and has 48 catches and number 2 is a WR with 22 catches that looks a little out of whack.

    Would you be "OK" with a TE leading a team in receptions?
    - Yes as I said above. If he is the leading receiver and leads by a small margin and your a power run team, I kinda expect it. But if your spreading out the Defense and have 3 WR on the field 90% of the time I would expect to see your WR leading your team in catches.

    Would you be "OK" with a HB leading a team in receptions?
    - I would be shocked to see a HB leading a team in catches. I know there are screens and swings/wheel routes and then there is the check down but that's still not enough to lead a team in catches.

    Do you feel WR1 or WR2 should by the #1 read on the majority of plays?
    - On most pass plays wr 1 & 2 should be your first reads but i realize they may not be the ones getting the ball. I have no issues going to your 3,4,5 options but those are generally on longer developing plays. I also realize you can gt good pre-snap reads but throws to the 4 & 5 option just seconds after the snap leads me to believe they were your first reads. But this also has alot of things to consider. If it was a blitz situation then I realize you will go to your hot routes first.

    Where do TEs / HBs fall in your chain of progression?
    - This depends on the play I called and what the defense is showing me. The TE is usually my 3rd receiver in the progression. For the HB, unless its a screen or a wheel route the HB is always my "Oh Crap I cant find anybody open" receiver. Most of my throw to the HB are where I am scanning my reads and I catch a glimpse of him all alone in the flats.

    Not including screens, are you "OK" with a TE / HB being the #1 read on a pass play? If yes, how often?
    - Outside of screens and a wheel route no the HB should not be your first read. And on those should not be the basis of your passing offense. The TE I can see more due to the PA plays and the plays that split him out, but it still comes back to what is the theme in all of these SIM threads. Overuse.

    Do you feel that HBs and TEs are thrown to too much?
    - I have not really seen much throwing to the HB outside of screens or check downs. I think at times the TE is overused. I know my TE falls into the category I described where he it toward the top of my team in catches but I think I have a pretty god distribution considering the style if offense I run.
     
  24. NeuroticTruth

    NeuroticTruth dont know , dont care

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    "Elite" in my eyes doesnt necessarily have everything to do with the "physical" attributes. If you ask a lot of people I've played, Jimmy Graham isnt great because he has great speed. His size is something that makes him hard to match up against, along with his intangibles, and various catch ratings etc. If you have a TE thats consistently beating coverage on a bevy of routes and is making plays, then by all means throw to him.

    I didnt mean it to come across as "Oh your TE isnt a 90 OVR? Well then you cant throw to him." There is more that goes into being an "elite" player (that goes for all positions IMO).

    What I really mean is, if you have a young / lower skilled player at any offensive position who is beasting stat wise because you're abusing various plays, your excuse shouldnt be "oh he just hasnt progressed to that level yet but hes going to be great".

    While stick skills and opponents do a play a factor in things, there are still expectations for the mediocre players.
     
  25. SteamboatReb

    SteamboatReb Walk On

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    For starters, let's clearly define Tight End.

    This is a fine example of TE:

    [​IMG]

    Notice the stance. This guy plays on the end of the line and is, first and foremost, a blocker who happens to be eligible to catch passes. Clean cut guy with a matching haircut.

    These are a fine examples of a football players who are referred to as a TEs because you had to put them into some category for the combine:

    [​IMG]

    Graham, Gronk, Davis, Hernandez, Finley, and Gates are as much TEs as Bavaro, Ditka, Kellen Winslow, Sr., etc. are WRs.

    Somewhere between these two groups reside Gonzales, Whitten, Novacek, Celek, etc.

    It is not what the guy is labeled, it is where he lines up at to catch his passes. If he is on the wing (off the line) or split out, and there is nobody in teh backfield save the qb, then you are kind of telling the defense '"I might throw to the best pass catcher on my team even though we call him a TE.'"



    Should a WR lead every team in receptions? If yes, what if its the slot receiver?

    Again, where did he catch the majority of his passes. I know a lot of people swap out there best WR for the slot to get a favorable matchup to run streaks. That is bullshit. If your slot WR does lead the team in catches, then you must have had at least 3 WRs on the field like 90% of the time.

    Would you be "OK" with a TE leading a team in receptions?

    Absolutely. Depends on your offensive scheme and the type of TE. The vertical speed TEs are a different breed. As long as he was not always lined up in the classic TE position all the time AND if a lot of the catches were downfield in slower developing routes. If the TE is leading because he is the blitz or certain defense '"gotcha'" choice, then no. In the Patriots offense, Gronk is on the field for every offensive set except 1 (Patriot 5 WR). Both Gronk and Hernandez are out there in most of the sets.

    Would you be "OK" with a HB leading a team in receptions?

    Hell no.

    Do you feel WR1 or WR2 should by the #1 read on the majority of plays?

    Depends on the formation. If you are in a classic I, then yes. If you are passing it should be to a WR. If you are in Empty Patriot Ace - - not necessarily. To one side you have the HB out wide off the line, Gronk on the line, and Hernandez off the line in the slot. The other side has the 1 and 2 WR. I am throwing to the open guy regardless of his designation. I am probably looking for Gronk, but he is not in a TE position here. Nobody is in a TE position.

    Where do TEs / HBs fall in your chain of progression?

    Once again, depends on the TE or HB. With the Pats, Gronk and Hernandez were always options. So were Welker and Llloyd. In Philly, there are special sets and plays designed to get the ball to McCoy through the air in space. Unique sets and plays for guys with unique skill sets. If cimmy's TE leads the Giants in receptions, something is wrong. If Gronk is at or near the top in NE, it is within reason. With a RB (McCoy, Forte, etc.), I would say secondish on team in receptions would be the highest. In a West Coast offense, it would not be crazy to have your RB lead the team in receptions. In 1986, Roger Craig led the 49ers and the whole fucking NFL in receptions with 92. Should that happen in HK, hell no, but a McCoy could catch a lot of passes.

    Not including screens, are you "OK" with a TE / HB being the #1 read on a pass play? If yes, how often?

    Absolutely. That is, if they are within a scheme, set and play designed to get them the ball.

    Do you feel that HBs and TEs are thrown to too much?

    Nope.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2012

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