"Sim-Play" in Rookie Symposium

Discussion in 'Rookie Symposium' started by RRAHx2, Nov 8, 2012.

  1. RRAHx2

    RRAHx2 Cleared for Takeoff

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    Fellow Owners, let me start by re-iterating what I said in the advance thread. You all have made this season a pleasure to play M13 and compete in the league. We have a great, diverse, active group of owners. Our number has been increasing in a time when, if you look around, every other league has been decreasing. We are one of the few full leagues (well 31 out of 32 are users) on this site. We have gone through our share of commishes, so I appreciate you all sticking with it. I appreciate all of your activity and contributions to making RS' inaugural season a success.

    With that being said, as commisioner, I am always going to be looking to improve the league so that every owner has the best experience possible. Matthew Keves and I have been doing just that, discussing ways to improve game-play and our sim experience based on our own observations, and those of others. So next season will bring some changes, to game-play sliders and league settings. We are going to be clamping down on stats and scores, and making it more difficult for offenses to move the ball / score.

    I understand that this is a video game, and we will never be able to emulate real NFL stats completely. Also, I understand that each owner here has a different skill level and amount of football knowledge, but each owner is responsible for his team's stats and production. We want to keep stats in line with the NFL average as much as possible.

    Keep in mind, "winning the game" should not be your #1 goal in terms of sim play. If you have that mind set, it inevitably will lead to some questionable play-calling, or play styles that will leave a sour taste in your opponent's mouth. Your #1 goal should be to ensure that you AND your opponent both have a pleasant experience.

    Now take that into consideration when reviewing some stats for this season:
    • The Redskins and Panthers are both on pace to score the most points / Season
    • The Redskins are on pace to break the NFL record for highest average PPG / Season
    • RG3 has broken 3 NFL rookie passing records this season already, and is on pace to break the all-time record for Passing TD's in a season.
    • Cam Newton is on pace to demolish 4 NFL All-Time passing records.
    • There are 5 QB's who will break the record for QB rating / Season
    • WR Victor Cruz destroyed Jerry Rice's record for Rec Yds / Season
    • TE Fred Davis is on pace to break the NFL record for Rec TD's / Season (for WR's AND TE's, surpassing even Jerry Rice / Randy Moss)
    This is not all of the records broken this year, but just the most obvious ones.

    Please also take into consideration your play-calling. The optimal pass/run ratio should be 1-1 (1 pass - 1 rush). but obviously there are exceptions based on personnel, and schemes. But the MOST any teams ratio should be, is about 1.4-1 on either side. There are numerous teams outside of that range, including the league leader at 2.09 pass attempts per rushing attempt.

    Do not take anything here as a direct-attack or finger pointing, just an advisory on changes to come. Thanks again guys for a AWESOME 1st season.


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    Last edited: Nov 8, 2012
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  2. oneshot24

    oneshot24 Walk On

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    i believe Fred Davis 23tds is less believable then my gronkowski's 15 haha just saying not only did he break TE's td record he tied the most td's by a player in a season but yes i understand we can do better!!
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2012
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  3. RRAHx2

    RRAHx2 Cleared for Takeoff

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    Yeah I meant to put Fred Davis, but you caught it before I could edit it! Your like a dam ninja, haha
     
  4. oneshot24

    oneshot24 Walk On

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    lol
     
  5. Snake Eyez

    Snake Eyez Walk On

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    How are the overall defensive stats looking at this point?

    I've only played two games so far, so my opinion doesn't carry a lot of weight... but the overall difficulty and sliders might need to be adjusted for more challenge.

    It seems AI players on defense are not particularly effective in coverage... especially in zones. When I play def, I control the MLB and I don't switch mid-play to try to get ints or deflections... but trying to play base coverages like cover-2 and cover-3 zones on early downs are being shredded and I have to resort to cover-2 man press on a lot of 3rd and longs just to get my defense off of the field... I noticed both of my opponents played cov2 m2m most of the games against me as well.
     
  6. mmorgan184

    mmorgan184 Walk On

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    I played one game against the Redskins and just want to comment on the experience of playing against him. Only two receivers caught any passes out of the approximately 20 completion RG III had. But these guys were always open no matter what defense I called. I am the Browns though so that is to be expected. But, Fred Davis was just shredding my defense the entire game. I am sure if we all had a player like him on our team we would be getting the ball to him all game.

    edit: Just remembered he didn't post a game summary either. It was a really good game for the first 45 minutes.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2012
  7. Matthew Keves

    Matthew Keves Walk On

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    Guys,

    As RRAHx2 said, these are meant to be examples of things that need to be changed and are not meant to call specific guys out. If you're upset about being mentioned or have comments about certain guys' gameplay, PM both of us commishes and talk about it privately.
    As mentioned, this is the first season, so there's already a learning curve. Add to that several commish changes and there hasn't been anyone who's been able to police these issues consistently. Rrah and I have had several discussions on this since taking over and this is meant to be a reminder of how things should be and are going to be going forward.
    Everyone should understand sim football, but sometimes even though you're following the letter of the law, you get comfortable using the same plays or relying on the same receivers. I do believe that this is made easier because the AI defense tends to allow that and certain guys are very difficult to stop, but each of us needs to take a look at our stats and see if anything stands out. Some big stats are reasonable, but some might be abusing plays or formations.
    If that's the case, we're going to be coming to you for answers, so be prepared to explain what's up.
    For example, Jahvid Best is averaging 7.4 yards a carry, which is pretty silly for a pro RB with that many carries. My response would be that I've had a significant amount of long runs and I'd feel very confident that my breakdown of runs outside and in between the tackles is as solid as almost anyone's.
    Also, Johnson is my most productive receiver, followed by Best and Pettigrew. My response is again pretty simple...Johnson is a beast and I don't think his overall numbers look that much different that they will in real life, in fact they're probably smaller that what he'd project to have. Pettigrew catches it well and Best is a beast out of the backfield. Burleson has stone hands and I haven't found a good 3rd receiver.

    Basically, what I'm saying is...if we come calling, don't go crazy. We're always going to do our best to make this league as legit as possible. If you're legit, you have nothing to fear. If you think you might be getting away with something, we'll talk to you about fixing the issue. I can honestly say no one has been called out consistently for cheesing, but we'll be watching much more closely going forward.
    On the flip side, if you look through your stats and notice you're putting up stats like the ones mentioned before, feel free to self-police yourself. If you've converted 3rd and 17 20 times with the same play, you need to fix that. Just because you can do it doesn't make it right.
    Also, if you're getting away with something, there might be a slider or rule change that would make the gameplay better...let us know and we'll discuss it.

    Rrah and I have put in a lot of effort to keep things running smoothly and I'm happy with how things are running. At the same time, we're always open and appreciative of you guys for coming to us with suggestions or things you see that can be tweaked or changed to improve the league. As we've said with forum activity, we'll get out of this league what we put into it.

    Thanks for your time and let's finish this season strong!!
     
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  8. RRAHx2

    RRAHx2 Cleared for Takeoff

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    Not to beat a dead horse, but as Keves said: If you guys don't give us any feedback or input, then you can't expect us to know what you want / expect from the league. Again, it is not my intention to point fingers, or offend anyone. It is solely to inform owners of what is to be expected from sim gameplay. I think we can ALL agree that breaking over 12 all-time NFL records in the first 16 games of season 1 is pretty ridiculous.
     
  9. Boman5

    Boman5 Walk On

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    Well said fellas
     
  10. Anthrax78

    Anthrax78 Walk On

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    Yeah, I mean you can adjust the sliders even more or cut back on clock but the problem lies in the fact that if you run 50-60 plays a game you are never going to get a true sim game because madden 13 isn't a "true sim game" in reality. I'm not saying it's a piece of shit but it is what it is. To be completely honest, people just need to learn how to lose and live with it as long as there isn't foul play involved. My game earlier with oneshot24 I made a run play that I would consider "unsim" but I was not intentionally doing it to screw him out of a win, I was just trying to make a play and didn't recognize it until after the play was over (juke move with R Bush without using the R-Stick, damn speed backs). You should expect to see at least a few plays a game that you might consider "unsim" but if you're down it can sting more and therefore you may complain about it. EA can't figure out yet that it would be valuable to save plays yet during CCM and unless you record it, there is really no way to really know. I would like to think everyone plays a close enough version of sim style that if you know how to play-call even a little you should be able to counter any offensive play if you know its coming. (or sometimes it's just a BAD match-up versus a team and you just don't have the personnel yet)

    As far as records breaking, this game gives so much incentive to break those records that you can't really get a honest answer with fellow coaches because in order to build your team, you should shoot for those records. If I saw someone who made a concrete effort to have a 60/40 pass run ratio it should not even be a big deal because it's the sliders or gameplay settings that are determining those results. (Really, this league is good compared to the others I've seen). I mean you could "sanction" teams that air raid every single game for picks/FA but if there is 20000 XP that are on the line for your QB, most coaches will not care. If a guy comes out and 2 to 1's pass/run's me in a game or goes to one WR/TE every play then that's on me and my coverage. Is it a dick move? Sure, would I play that way myself, fuck no! But in my honest opinion you as a coach or a play-caller need to take accountability over that. Now if a coach decides to keep throwing deep with a three score lead in late 3rd or 4th that's a different story. (It's always passing this year?)

    In conclusion, I think you guys have set-up a very close sim league that really has the best sliders from I've seen so far so please don't take this as a negative post or anything like that. It's just a honest response. I begged a commish in another league I'm in to adjust sliders against passing and I can guarantee that there will be a 6000 yard mark over there (My QB, Stafford has a 30 TD & 3 INT's) I completely admit that it is complete bullshit (I still run the ball and make a VERY honest effort to establish a run-game and keep in a 60/40 ratio) there are other guys that will throw 40 times every game and have some excuse for it every time. In my honest view, pass sliders should be extremely slighted and I believe that they pretty much are so it may take some looking into for season 2. You can maybe tweak the clock back to what it was or turn up pass rush, which would only add to more passing for long situations and ridiculous sack numbers. If anything I would say that injuries should be way more in order to pull back on "superstar" play-styles and promote depth instead of top-heavy teams and in my lifetime more times than not, it's the teams that either stay healthy, have depth, or get flat out lucky that win the Super Bowl. Just my 2 cents;)
     
  11. Boman5

    Boman5 Walk On

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    I haven't seen any foul play all season. I'm really impressed with this league and I hope we can keep this group together for a while.
     
  12. oneshot24

    oneshot24 Walk On

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    i didnt notice any unsim plays by you u played a very clean game i got out of my comfort zone i dnt like throwing 40 times a game i rather see around 30 attempts but i was down and felt that passing was my only option 2 getting back in the game i still threw in a few runs 2 mix it up but i passed a little 2 much. and another thing i have 2 change up my looks cuz i noticed u were catching on 2 some things in the 3rd quarter that completely made me change my play calls and audibles

    Anthrax78
     
  13. oneshot24

    oneshot24 Walk On

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    This season has been very fun i have no complaints i beleive we found a very good commish in RRAHx2 and there is very good talent in all divisions makes it very fun when u dnt know who will win the division or win a wildcard spot, the race in the afc east besides the jets all fought for a playoff spot made it very exciting.
     
  14. Anthrax78

    Anthrax78 Walk On

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    Yeah, I'm not implying that everyone is dirty either but sometimes it's easy to get lost in the game from a slighted viewpoint. You were down and played the way you needed in order win. I would of done the same thing and that's what makes it fun! This is my favorite league I'm in and I really can care less about the Dolphins in real life. I was just giving a personal viewpoint and I've really only had one shady encounter so far since I've joined TSO. Yeah AFC East race was awesome.
     
  15. Matthew Keves

    Matthew Keves Walk On

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    Great posts guys...again, we weren't singling guys out, just looking at certain stats.
    I played Element in the preseason tourney and I never thought during or after that he did anything that was cheesy or even close for that matter. Since you guys so far have no issues with gameplay, which is fantastic, we'll test some slider tweaks and see what works.
    Honestly, what I'd like to see happen is to have more penalties and injuries involved. Some guys might not like the luck/variance factor, but if you're looking for more realism, that's probably a good place to look.
    Anyway, we're glad that you guys are happy with the league and if it's apparent that breaking records is just par for the course with this game, then so be it. Our goal is to create the most realistic experience for everyone.
     
  16. MS8403

    MS8403 Walk On

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    I would give anything to score than one TD a game, lol. Some of these offensive stats are nuts!
     
  17. Elemnt

    Elemnt Walk On

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    How do we find out our ratio of Pass/Run for the entire season? Can we do that when we aren't on the xbox? I don't even have a clue of where I fall but I can't imagine it being too far off from 1-1 *shrugs* I've seen only a couple people I've played that seemed like they were throwing all but a few runs. Not sure if it can be justified because they got behind early and felt like every drive was "do or die" but I'm not sure. I've had a solid experience so far. I would love if we all communicated after the game better. You can't really read people's mind. I've had a couple times I felt like a saw a cheesey route but that's just because it was open all the time. I had to manually cover it because the CPU couldn't cover that route for whatever reason. However my defense overall is pretty garbage in the secondary so that can likely be attributed to that.

    Edit: eh I think I found it:

    Cam newton: 305 pass attemps
    Panthers Team: 379 rush attempts

    But I think this online system may be bunk. It says jimmy the bum clausen has 157 completions and 33 sacks LMAO. Cam was never hurt and definitely never put this bum in.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2012
  18. RRAHx2

    RRAHx2 Cleared for Takeoff

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    Yeah next season I am going to look at adding scouting reports on each other post-game. That should help people be able to communicate their thoughts on each other's game-play easier.

    To get the run/pass ratio just add up all your QB's pass attempts+times sacked then the rushing attempts by RB's / FB's combined.
     
  19. Elemnt

    Elemnt Walk On

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    Ya i updated the post just before you replied. No idea how to explain the clausen stats...
     
  20. RRAHx2

    RRAHx2 Cleared for Takeoff

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    Just to clarify, I realize that records will be broken and the game is becoming more of a "passing game". However, when a record is broken it should be within reason. For example, the receiving record was prior to this year was 1800 yds. Victor Cruz has over 2100 yds this season. That is 300 yds over the previous record. That is completely ridiculous! That kind of unrealistic production is what we are looking to avoid. When a receiver is averaging over 27 yds per catch for an ENTIRE season? Those kind of numbers are what we are looking to tone down.
     
  21. Elemnt

    Elemnt Walk On

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    Rut roh. Looking at these that's - thats me boss. hmm I have my suspicions why this is with Smitty but NEVER thought it would be that high...

    12-17 ypc for the entire season seems to be the upper echelon in the NFL looking at past stats.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2012
  22. Matthew Keves

    Matthew Keves Walk On

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    Elemnt
    Your passing stats stand out, but we don't know why. Newton is averaging 15.3 YPA. The league leader in the real NFL is 8.23 YPA. Even second place in our league is 11.7, so that's still a huge outlier. You have 3!! guys with 30+catches averaging over 27 YPC, including your TE. Steve Smith has almost 1700 yards receiving but only played 8 games.
    That's not to say you're doing something wrong, but we're trying to avoid outliers like that in this league.
    We had a great first season and we're going to continue to have a great league, but there may be some tweaks made to level the game a little bit. The running stats look pretty legit in terms of league leaders in rushing yards and YPC, but there's something up with the passing that's making it too tempting to air it out deep.
     
  23. Elemnt

    Elemnt Walk On

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    He's definitely played in 16 games not 8 games. Not sure if that's a typo or something. I'd be interested in helping test the new sliders.
     
  24. Matthew Keves

    Matthew Keves Walk On

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    My bad...just going by the stats on the game. Like I said, I'm not accusing you of anything...we played in the preseason tourney and I mentioned that we had a great game. My guess is that the sliders make it way too easy to throw downfield...there have been times where I've been in 3 deep or even prevent and I've had 1 CB covering 2 WRs.
    So to everyone out there, if you've noticed something that's easily exploitable, speak up so we can try and fix it.
    I don't want to turn up the INTs or overall sack percentages, but in the real NFL, most passes come out in less than 2 seconds. There are too many times where guys in our league have 5-6 seconds to scan the field.
    Obviously we're never going to perfectly replicate the real NFL, but we're curious to see how close we can get.
     
  25. Elemnt

    Elemnt Walk On

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    Then you're going to have to big time up the ability to come off the edge or shed blocks from the D line. I've never really "felt" pressure in our league once. There are have been sacks don't get me wrong but I dismiss those to flukey block shed occurring. There's definitely never been the urgency to get the ball out quick. The starting line for Carolina is pretty beastly on the left but I don't think that's the reason I just don't feel 4 or 5 man rushes.
     

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