Stat Lines

Discussion in 'Thread Archive' started by Archie Griffin, Jan 19, 2011.

  1. Archie Griffin

    Archie Griffin Walk On

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2009
    Messages:
    5,738
    This is just a curiosity thing. I'm not calling anyone out. Here's my question:

    We have a game this week in which the two teams playing ran about 85 plays from scrimmage. We have another in which the teams ran over 150.

    Now, I know some guys hurry up, snap quick, and do quite a bit to get extra snaps, and extra stats. I don't do this, but I'm not going to call it unfair. You guys can play however you want.

    My question is about the gap. How in the world is the difference from one game to another THAT big? I can see a significant difference existing between a pro style guy who likes to line up and read the D, and a hurry up guy who speeds it up - but that gap seems huge.

    How does this happen?
     
  2. the_rhinoceros

    the_rhinoceros Walk On

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2010
    Messages:
    370
    I'm the 85 guy. I was chewing clock the whole 2nd half since I was up 49-0 at halftime and I could have easily scored 100 points if I wanted to. My opponent didn't get one first down the whole game.
     
  3. Archie Griffin

    Archie Griffin Walk On

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2009
    Messages:
    5,738
    And maybe that's something to discuss as well. Some guys are having real trouble, and I know I was challenged much more than I thought I would be by Bowling Green. Was MTSU really that bad? I'm just wondering if it was a fluke, or a symptom of a larger problem, if you know what I mean.
     
  4. carolinaeasy

    carolinaeasy Walk On

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2010
    Messages:
    2,418
    I haven't been challenged by this set yet. Now keep in mind Tulane was my stiffest competition but I scored over 100 points in two games. And nearly 80 of those are first half points. I also have my back up players playing extensively and I am using a totally new playbook and style to do this. Also if you watch my highlight videos I am scoring in many different ways it is not the same repetitive plays. I think we MIGHT have some thing to keep an eye on.
     
  5. Archie Griffin

    Archie Griffin Walk On

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2009
    Messages:
    5,738
    I'm not sure. In my game, the defense was in the exact right spot on every play. I was able to move the ball, and I wasn't in any danger of losing, but they seemed to line up in the exact right place on every play, as if the defense was in my huddle. It actually got a bit frustrating at times.

    I think we should see what happens when we get tougher competition. If we run over conference foes like this, then I think we'll have to make a change. But I'm thinking we'll have trouble doing so. Let's see what happens.
     
  6. carolinaeasy

    carolinaeasy Walk On

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2010
    Messages:
    2,418
    I am with you on the "wait and see approach" I just think this merits our continued attention as well.
     
  7. the_rhinoceros

    the_rhinoceros Walk On

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2010
    Messages:
    370

    Well I had real hard time running the ball against Memphis the first game. But if you look at my replays in the MTSU game, there's one play when the HB is being gang tackled by literally five players and he breaks through the pile and runs like 50 yards for a TD. I was breaking a lot of tackles.

    We're using these sliders in Zeros to Heros and we're actually going to have to make them easier because everyone is averaging less than two yards per carry. And the CPU is beating us a lot. But we play with lower ranked team than Sim Nation.

    I think MTSU just really sucks. Low rated teams get really bad as the dynasty progresses through the years. Also MTSU runs alot of Shotgun running plays and my defensive line was eating them up.

    I just looked up MTSU's Depth Chart. Their Center is a 58. QB is 63. Most of their starters are rated in the 60s.
     
  8. bdub

    bdub Walk On

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2010
    Messages:
    2,065
    CPU ranked opponents 3 us 0 so far this season. These sliders are not really hard but exteremly frustrating. It feels like the CPU cheat is extra high with these sliders.

    Some examples, I am down by 3 with a few minutes to go, I force them to punt and what does my return guy do? He fumbles the ball that goes for a TD. I get the ball back and score getting it back to 3, and I get the ball with a minute to go, I drive all the way down to the their 20 yard line and then my guys drop 2 TD catches and another that would have got me a first down. So tell me how do my guys drive the field making great catches and then drop 3 in a row?

    Another time I tried to throw to my WR and got picked by a guy on their d-line. This wasnt a tipped ball he just jumped 10 feet in the air and grabbed it.

    Granted West Virginia is a B+ team and I am an A- team so it should be a hard fought game but I feel like the CPU was causing my guys to drop passes, etc. to keep it close.
     
  9. TD351

    TD351 Walk On

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2010
    Messages:
    516
    I got the same vibe Bdub- Every time I needed a play it was either a drop or an absurd jump/swat or block shed...but when CPU needed a play it was broken tackles all over the place. I think the challenge is making sliders that are a tough and realistic for all of the the varying rosters/styles of play that we have- settings that make for a good game for some teams may make it impossible or too easy for others.
     
  10. Mr2Bits

    Mr2Bits 352

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2009
    Messages:
    3,370
    I'll be traveling to Texas tonight, so I will be able to weigh in on the slider discussion.

    Archie - I think part of what is contributing to the large number of plays per game is the 8 minute quarters. I know you guys like that length, but 4 extra minutes per game means about 20+ plays.
     
  11. carolinaeasy

    carolinaeasy Walk On

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2010
    Messages:
    2,418
    I don't think the 8 minutes have any thing to do with what Arch is concerned about. He is more concerned about how we have a 65 play difference between two different games with the same sliders/time constraints. I think if the numbers weren't so whack we wouldn't be having this conversation. But that is a statistical abnormality and as a commish that is what you look for and solve.
     
  12. egofailure

    egofailure Sim habits die hard!

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2010
    Messages:
    3,309
    I've only played one game thus far, so I'm not sure that my opinion means much. In my game against Boise (who is ranked B overall), I thought they played me relatively tough. The lone exception? Power runs. I ran 3 in this game. The first went for 80 yards, but was called back on a holding penalty. The second went 60 yards for a TD. And the third went for 48 yards and a TD.

    As far as pace/# of plays is concerned, I'd be interested in knowing where I fall. I think I tend to play a slower/pro-style pace, but I sometimes find myself moving quickly when I'm in good rythem. I'd imagine that the more difficult the game, the less plays I'd run, since I'd be spending more time breaking down the defense pre snap. I never "no huddle" just to get stats in. That's for 6th-graders playing in off-line dynasties.
     
  13. Archie Griffin

    Archie Griffin Walk On

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2009
    Messages:
    5,738
    Here's where I'm at:

    In order to keep things fun, guys have to be able to win. Whatever our settings, they can't make anyone feel like they may never win a game. We have a number of different skill sets here, and I'd much rather ask the stick jocks to restrain themselves than crank it up to a point where some guys can't get a win. And I think we're closer to the latter than the former right now.

    Just a thought - Our last set got decent numbers, but it was slow and some guys could put up big pass numbers. What if we went to a higher speed (normal) and upped the CPU picks, so the guys who can bomb away downfield pay a heavier price - and maybe up the coverage a touch.

    I want to solve the issues immediately, since I don't want seasons to be ruined by this stuff. I want CPU losses, but I don't want them in bunches. We had a pretty good thing last year, and we can go back to it if we need to.

    Just throwin' that out there. We're about having a good time here, and I don't want to remove that from anyone.
     
  14. egofailure

    egofailure Sim habits die hard!

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2010
    Messages:
    3,309
    I'd like to see everyone's input on this one, please.
     
  15. TD351

    TD351 Walk On

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2010
    Messages:
    516
    I like it- I still want a challenge- And don't want it to be easy for guys with stacked teams, so this sounds like a good direction.
     
  16. Archie Griffin

    Archie Griffin Walk On

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2009
    Messages:
    5,738
    I think if we can increase the risk in the passing game (which speed and CPU INT rating can do for us - or at least give us a good start) then we can get things back on track. Guys will still probably lose games - as they should - but when I hear things like "the CPU cheats" I snap to attention, especially when I agree.

    I like the challenge, but it doesn't feel like player vs player challenge - it just feels like the other team gets my playcalls before I line up, and then knows every audible as well. It's just not as much fun.

    I think we can adjust, back up a bit, and if we start running it up on the cpu, we'll attack the problem then.

    But since we're advancing tonight (if ND-Mich play like they are scheduled to) I want something in place before the next week starts. Maybe we can use this set as our new bowl sliders.
     
  17. bdub

    bdub Walk On

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2010
    Messages:
    2,065
    I think adjusting the sliders again is a good idea. I love a good challenge and don't mind losing a game but when I feel like the CPU cheated me to win the game that is just not any fun at all.

    I am not that good so I always figure I am just not as good as you guys but when I see TD lose a game he would normally win it makes me feel like we really do have a problem
     
  18. TD351

    TD351 Walk On

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2010
    Messages:
    516
    I'm not that good either, but hopefully not as bad as UNC made me look in the 2nd half- It also did seem as if every play was hit or miss...as in "this run always works and that run never works"...which would tend to give people an incentive to get very repetitive in playcalling- but this is just based on one game and this was my first real look at my 2013 squad (my game vs OSU/Archie was not even football on my end- it felt more like torture)
     
  19. Archie Griffin

    Archie Griffin Walk On

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2009
    Messages:
    5,738
    I am in the process of tweaking the last set we had to account for some of the things we saw last year. I have made a few discoveries:
    1. D-line play seems to be tied to the difference between pass rush and pass block. So, on run plays, when guys shed their blocks and get in the backfield, it's not a result of the run defense setting - or at least it doesn't appear to be this way. I think a more realistic d-line, perhaps cpompensated for by better tackling backers and such would give us a more realistic run game, and it would open up the read option a bit.
    2. The faster speed adds some difficulty in the passing game. I find that I don't pull the trigger downfield with as much confidence. We'll get used to it, and the numbers will climb when we do, but we can deal with that later.
    3. A slight change in threshold to five and a couple of other minor tweaks are looking good so far.
    Here's our old set with some new adjustments:

    Sliders & Settings

    Difficulty: All American

    Quarters: 8 mins

    Speed: Normal

    Threshold: 5


    Offense|HUM|CPU
    QB Accuracy: 10|15

    Pass Block: 35 (+15)|20

    WR Catching: 40|40

    RB Ability: 45|50

    Run Blocking: 35 (+5)|50

    Defense|HUM|CPU

    Pass Coverage: 45|50 (+5)

    Pass Rush: 30|40 (+10)

    Interceptions: 25|45 (+20)

    Rush Defense: 20|55

    Tackling: 25|45

    Special Teams|HUM|CPU

    FG Power: 20|20

    FG Accuracy: 55|55

    P Power: 50|55

    P Accuracy: 70|70

    Kickoff Power: 50|55
     
  20. Archie Griffin

    Archie Griffin Walk On

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2009
    Messages:
    5,738
    What I have done is up both the pass rush and the pass block, but I lessened the gap between them by five, and tyhe line play looks better, yet the d-line still throws off blocks and makes noise - it's just not a guarantee on every play.

    I'll be messing with these throughout the day. I think it might be a little too easy to run, so our run block could come back down, and we may end up with a QB accuracy at 5 before we're done, but the game feels much better so far ,and it's no cake walk.

    Those of you with the time, put in a game and post some thoughts. I want to handle this right away, and I don't think the tweaks are giant game-changers or anything. I just want a few opinions if I can get them.
     
  21. the_rhinoceros

    the_rhinoceros Walk On

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2010
    Messages:
    370
    Nice job, Archie. I'll test these out today. I said this in my other league, in every computer game I've ever played the CPU cheats at the highest difficulty setting and NCAA is no different. I don't think Heisman sliders will ever feel like real football.

    I'm very impressed that Arch identified this issue so early and then took immediate steps to fix it.
     
  22. Archie Griffin

    Archie Griffin Walk On

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2009
    Messages:
    5,738
    Before the Heisman set, we got a lot of comments about the "feel" of the game. Most thought it slow, but liked the gameplay in general. To me, this is much more important than making sure things are "tough enough." What I'll be shooting for is something difficult, but not difficult for the sake of difficulty. I'll try to reign in the big stats I see, but I'm not going to allow mind-reading corners that only allow passing against zone coverage. And I think there is room in AA to do all of that.

    Let's make sliders a topic of discussion and a kind of hobby for the next few in-game weeks, and then we'll solidify something and try not to discuss them again unless we absolutely have to. Slider discussions can be tedious. We had a good thing going. It was a mistake to f with it in such a large way. We'll be taking baby steps from now on.
     
  23. Archie Griffin

    Archie Griffin Walk On

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2009
    Messages:
    5,738
    Thanks. I think the feel of the game was one of the best things we had going for us. I don't want to lose that. And if we move backward, we know exactly what we will get, so there will be no newness to get accustomed to - or only just a little.

    I just wish it didn't put a couple of losses on guys in the process. How about we do this:

    Tom and bdub - since both of you went 0-2, and pretty much identified the issue for us, why don't I make you an offer (pending the OK from the guys) - would you object to me throwing out your results and simming your Week 2 games? Now, you would run the risk of injury, and may take the losses anyway, but if you're the gambling sort, I think the league might be OK with this.

    Just an idea
     
  24. bdub

    bdub Walk On

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2010
    Messages:
    2,065
    Pending everyones OK I would take a sim on my 2nd game. Got to say AG, great job looking into this and making such a fast fix, appreciate all the effort you put into the OD.
     
  25. Archie Griffin

    Archie Griffin Walk On

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2009
    Messages:
    5,738
    Come to think of it - a week 2 "do-over" might be a good idea for anyone who wants it, save the user game, of course. I'll listen to objections if we have any.
     

Share This Page