Systems

Discussion in 'Thread Archive' started by Archie Griffin, Dec 7, 2010.

  1. Archie Griffin

    Archie Griffin Walk On

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    (Disclaimer: This post refers to no one, nor should it. Refer only to your own play in this discussion, and do not single anyone out. I want no ugliness in this thread.)

    Let's talk about'em.

    Most of us have some kind of system that we run, and base a large part of our offense on. Here's what I want to know:

    1. What systems do you find annoying?
    2. What counts as running too few plays?
    3. What counts as running too few sets?
    4. Have you ever felt like the guys you were playing beat you up with a small but unbeatable combination of plays?
    5. Do we search for and implement the "flawless" systems that we can read about over at NCAA Strategies or OS?
    My opinion - nothing is unstoppable, but (and it's a big BUT) some of the systems we can research and put in place are damn near unstoppable in user games, when sliders are set at default.

    Personally, I used to do this: I had a system in place in which I could run an ACE-Twins set and either run to an advantage or throw to an open guy on each and every play. I knew your D the moment I lined up, and I never made a mistake. Also, I had a five wide set that allowed me to, on every down, throw to an open guy. I made the occasional mistake, but there weren't many, and I could have thrown for 500 any time I wanted. Here's what I did:

    1. I gave up my Buckeyes.
    2. I picked a playbook that had neither of the sets I speak of above. (I run mostly a two back offense, which is, in my opinion, the hardest to run)
    3. I got rid of all the stuff that turned the game into a simple repetition of things that never fail.
    But that's just me. I did it first, and I should do it first. I don't expect everyone to do this stuff just to restore balance, but I do want us to be aware of this stuff. If we're running a pretty repetitive system, we might want to think about what's next. Let's keep the game fresh, keep it fun for everyone, and keep everyone around until the next release, when we can start all over again.

    My point - We need top be thinking about longevity. Keeping ourselves human is part of the deal.

    Or should we just say "F^%$ it, just win" and do what we please? I'm OK with us doing this if we want to, but I thought we should discuss it first, since I don't want to be the only guy actively trying to work against this stuff. After two years of not even being in the running for a major award or championship, I'm kinda feeling the itch to simply put up stats and win it all. Somebody stop me.
     
  2. bdub

    bdub Walk On

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    Personally I have my own scheme that I run, but it can certainly be stopped and gets stopped all the time. To me playing a realistic scheme and getting beat sometimes is far more fun than having a formula that I follow every single game.

    Personally I have never played someone that could beat me with the same play or a couple of plays over and over again. Everything can be stopped if you know your playbook good enough and/or have the stick skills to stop it.
     
  3. Archie Griffin

    Archie Griffin Walk On

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    There are a few "no punt" systems out there that can really only be stopped by a fumble or a dropped pass. I look at punt numbers periodically, just to see who's never getting stopped. You'd be surprised how many "no punt" games we've played.
     
  4. OsirisMonster

    OsirisMonster Walk On

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    I run a scheme. I come to the line of scrimmage with a pre-snap read that I'll make and then decide if I want to keep the play, flip the play, hot route, or audible to a different play. I also have my audible set up so I can come to the line of scrimmage in a base play and then pick the play I want to run based on what the defense shows me. I look for things like man vs zone, leverage of defenders and pre-snap movement, and whether or not the defense is cheating outside or inside.

    The thing, though, that I find out helps me the most is the familiarity I have with my playbook. I have 15 of the 20 formations in my playbook that I feel comfortable calling plays from. Within each formation I have a number of runs and passes that I will call at any time. Some formations have less and some have more but generally I'll use all the runs and 70% of the non-play action passes in a formation. There are some formations where I have built in mini-schemes based on my audible selections. These include things like I-Form 2 WR, Ace/SG Snuggs, and Strong I sets.

    I've clocked countless hours in practice mode running through all the pass plays in the formations I use against all the coverage I expect to see. I'll run a play against a Cover 2 Zone, then against a Cover 3 Zone, then Cover 4 Zone, then against a few different Zone Blitzes, Cover 2 Man, Cover 1 Man, Cover 0 Man, various Man blitzes, etc. Doing this I get a really good feel for how the defense lines up against a given formation, how my receivers run their routes against various coverage, and how my blocking scheme holds up against the pressure. I try various things like hot routing, motion, etc to see what is the most successful. This is something I'm constantly doing. Against Easy I pulled out a few plays I hadn't used yet and set up a few of my favorite ways in slightly different ways based on practice mode results.

    If I was to change playbooks I'd do that same thing with the new playbook. I do try to keep it varied in my play calling though. I like to have a handful of plays I feel will work given my down/distance/opponent and then try to pick the one I think will catch my opponent off guard.

    As for your questions....

    1) Systems I find annoying.
    Empty backfield. I find this to be the hardest thing to stop. With 5 receivers on routes it is really easy to get the ball to someone in the open and bust a big play. Very difficult to defend.
    Heavy run sets. This includes stuff like Maryland I Heavy from MSU playbook or the Wishbone Tight, Jumbo T Big, or pretty much anything with 3 HBS and 2 TEs. They are very hard to stop and can be frustrating. I wouldn't want to ban them though. I'll find a way to adjust to people that run those.

    2) Too few plays.
    Too few plays would be running the same basic play all game long. This could be running HB Counter play (even if you do it from 5 different formations) for 90% of your running plays or running the same passing concept like a Shallow Cross (even if from 5 different formations.) I'd expect a team to use different run plays (Inside runs like Iso/Dive/Blast and Outside runs like Counter/Stretch/Power O/Toss). Same with passing concepts. As long as a team isn't using the same passing concepts and same run plays every down I'm fine with it. What is that threshold? That is hard to peg exactly.

    3) Too few formations is another tricky thing. I guess if you are using 50% of the formations in your playbook during a given day then you are doing fine. If you have 20 formations in your playbook use 10 of them during the game. This number is dependant on how you are doing. I don't expect a team down 3 scores in the second half to do much from a power run formation and I don't expect a team that is leading big to do anything from a shotgun passing formation.

    4) I've felt like I've faced a small but powerful set of plays before but I've never felt like I couldn't adjust and find a way to stop what the offense was doing. I don't find an opponent that uses a small set of plays nearly as scary as an opponent that really knows how to use even 50% of their playbook with high effectiveness.

    5) I look over at NCAA Strats for tips they have. I'm mostly looking for how other people go through read progression on pass concepts and how they read pre/post snap on running plays. I don't look for the magical blueprint to tell me how to play offense but I do look for tips from people that have used similar styling of offense that I use to see what works and doesn't work for them.
     
  5. OsirisMonster

    OsirisMonster Walk On

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    I've had a number of no punt games. I don't try to run a "no punt" system it just happens. Having a 99 KPW kicker really helps in this. I feel comfortable trying for a FG from anywere inside my opponent's 40 yard line. I also don't go for that many 4th downs.
     
  6. Archie Griffin

    Archie Griffin Walk On

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    That's it. I'm buying you a woman :D

    Seriously, though - I practice and I design schemes to fit the defenses I'm playing against. I'm not sure "countless hours" accurately describes my process, but I log some time. Thing is, over the past couple of seasons, I've been working against myself, trying to limit my own ability to run plays that don't (or can't) miss. I figure a little bit of self-analysis is good for the league. I don't think anyone here is unbeatable, but it's always good to chat about this stuff.
     
  7. Goose

    Goose Walk On

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    I hate the 5 wide sets and find them hard almost impossible to stop. If a guy goes 5 wide more than a couple times in a row, I jump to the RE and try to blow past the tackle to get the sack. Personally I don't want to see us say f- it and go for the stats. I like how things are pretty balanced around here.
    I never audible to a better play at the line. The only adjustment I'll do is change the side the run is going, bring a guy in motion. Heck, I've never run a practice at all.

    I'd like to see a scouting report thread, that opponents put up things they noticed from a game (not in a finger pointing way, but in a likes to pass on 2nd down kinda thing.) That way out of conference guys can gameplan and we can change our own game so we're not predictable.
     
  8. OsirisMonster

    OsirisMonster Walk On

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    Ha. I don't do it all at once. Syracuse is the book I've been using since NCAA 11 came out. If you really want to improve your game I heavily suggest you spend some time in practice mode. Even if you just spend and hour or two a few times a week it will help alot. I'd suggest picking a formation you like in your playbook. Then go through each of the plays in practice mode and run them against different formations and coverages. Focus primarily on the four main foramtions you will likely see (Cover 2 / Cover 3 / Cover 2 Man / Blitz.) The first few times you run the play just hike the ball and sit back watching how the play unfolds. Don't make any attempt to pass the ball or move the HB (on a run.) Just watch. Look at how the blockers block the DLine. See how the blitz gets picked up (or missed). Watch how the WRs run their routes and how the defense defends based on the formation. Look closely before the play starts to see how the defense is lining up and how they move around pre-snap. All these things can give you insight into how to attack the defense.

    When you learn one formation move on to another. Try to add some variety by picking a 2 back formation then an ace formation then a shotgun formation. Before you know it you will have a wide assortment of plays at your disposal. It is also important to know that some plays in your playbook just won't work the way you want them too. Don't spend too mucy time trying to get them to work. Move on. There are many other plays that will work how you want them to.

    Here is a tip for people looking to improve their passing game. The key to beating a pass coverage isn't in the route but in the route combination your players run. Sure a drag is good against man but a mesh (two opposing drags) is better. Why? Because the drags create a natural pick on the defense allowing one of the drags to get open almost every play. The passing plays in your playbook aren't made of random routes, they are made of route combinations designed to attack specific defenses. Learning the route combinations and the right read progression is the difference between a completion and an interception. That is were practice mode really helps.
     
  9. carolinaeasy

    carolinaeasy Walk On

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    I used to run a system that was based out of Ace Spread where I read the box and if it was stacked went to one of three passes I had set as audibles. It was a nearly unstoppable formation because I had enough players in each facet to get an advantage somewhere on the field. That was on last years edition of NCAA. This year I have been trying to be more varied. Like Arch I had to force myself to diversify my play style, and with that I have a "system" that I run this year. It is called don't call a play that is in your quick audibles and if that play isn't open check off to one that is open. What I find is I still get stopped, but it forces me to know my playbook, and read the defense, and mix up the calls.

    1. There are a couple of "systems" I find annoying. Since coming here to TF I haven't encountered many but there are some things that piss me off. The wanna be Payton Mannings are really the biggest, but there haven't been too many other issues.

    2. I have to disagree with OM on this one. I played in the Ohio State offense in college and it is built upon a core set of plays run out of 15 different formations to get matchups that favor your team. I think running the inside zone, power, and stretch about 90% of the time is fine. I don't like the system where you come out in the same 3-4 formations and run the same thing everytime. I have had this happen to me and it takes away the joy of the game.


    3. See above. You gotta mix it up and anything under 7 is BS or you are simply much better than your opponent and can line up base and run them over.

    4. I have ran into systems that were damn near impossible to stop. You could get a stop here or there but they were few and far between. Sometimes the player ratings have something to do with this.

    5. I check things out on NCAA strategies but that really became something about a month ago when I started running the fleXbox One in my TLC dynasty...looking for that group that runs that system there. But I never really have looked for a system, more like what plays are broken and what you can do about it.
     
  10. OsirisMonster

    OsirisMonster Walk On

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    I would think running inside zone, power, stretch 90% of the time is acceptable. It's when you just run counter 90% of the time that it gets crazy. What you have there are three plays that each attack a defense in a different way. That is pretty good variety. When I'm in I form I'll usually come out in one run play like a counter. Then I'll have an audible to something like inside zone and formation audible to power O. I just meant you should mix up inside running and outside running and gave some examples of each.
     
  11. bdub

    bdub Walk On

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    Many real life coaches will run the same play over and over until you stop it. Take for instance Mike Leach has been known to run the same play from a few different formations all the way down the field. I have run into this in the game and it doesn't bother me. I figure if I know my defense I should be able to adjust to take away anything.

    Easy, what do you mean by get your Peyton Manning on?
     
  12. Archie Griffin

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    This sounds about right. Counters seem a bit overpowered, as do outside runs as a whole, especially with our 0 threshold setting. We've been pretty good about it, though. I've played guys who go to a particular well quite a bit, but I do too. However, most of the time, it's a formation audible to an inside run in reaction to a read of the defense, rather than a called play that I know works most of the time.

    When guys do things in a repetitive manner, it always comes to me. Guys feel something is off, but it isn't enough to call someone out on, so they give me a heads up that something might be happening. Instances of this have been very few, but they happen, and they are almost always said with respect for the other player. I have not experienced anything at all that I would call "bitching" or anything that sounds like an accusation. This is a good thing, because it means we play a pretty straight game, and it also means we can take a loss. Most of the stuff that qualifies as "bitching" is typically a sign of someone not being able to handle a loss more than a sign of suspect gameplay. I think we're pretty good here. It's just never a bad idea to have the occasional discussion.

    Idea: What about a mandatory playbook change for every conference winner? That's one way to infuse some variety. Just a thought.
     
  13. carolinaeasy

    carolinaeasy Walk On

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    What do we do about Notre Dame? Lol

    I like that thought...kinda replicates the "offensive coordinator left for a head coaching gig" thing...
     
  14. carolinaeasy

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    I have played guys who come out and literally make their qb audible for like 15 seconds or more...it is simply annoying.
     
  15. TD351

    TD351 Walk On

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    I agree that repitition is a realistic strategy but I think the problem is that even that if you (on defense) know what is coming you cannot prepare for it nearly as well as you could in real life with 11 players that all know what is coming- the 10 cpu players still cover assingments rather than a specific play. I wish the game had a "play commit" option on defense where it brings up the opposing offense's playbook and you could completely sell out on stopping one play- if you are right it works, but if you are wrong you probably pay the price.
     
  16. carolinaeasy

    carolinaeasy Walk On

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    Here is a question that pertains to my offense in TLC...I run the multiple playbook and will come out and run the fleXbox One triple option the entire way down the field... 12 plays reading what the defense does and run the ball...you guys think this is cheese? I am fine with hearing it I really want to know what you think.
     
  17. Archie Griffin

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    We leave ND the hell alone. They need all the help they can get :bunny:
     
  18. carolinaeasy

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    Lol...damn catholics...oh wait I am one...dulp!
     
  19. TD351

    TD351 Walk On

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    I don't think that is cheese.
     
  20. Archie Griffin

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    The Triple is really three plays, a dive, a keeper, and a pitch. It's only cheese if it has an unrealistic chance of success. Granted, I'd be mixing in some of the misdirection stuff and an occasional pass, the triple essentially IS the offense, so I think it needs to be viewed a little differently.
     
  21. carolinaeasy

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    Yeah I do mix in the other plays...i was being a bit overblown with the 12 plays but I will run it alot...I thought you would say something similar to what you did. I coach the veer in real life so to me I look for that style of play...I only wished this game had the splitback veer in it...
     
  22. bdub

    bdub Walk On

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    If you can successfully run the triple option all the way down the field you got my respect. I have never sucked at an offense is bad as the fleXbox One.
     
  23. carolinaeasy

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    Lol, well 1 out of 3 isn't bad either is it? I am becoming better at running it, but I have yet to play a user-user game with it yet...I have a feeling it will be terrible.
     
  24. egofailure

    egofailure Sim habits die hard!

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    I've gone through a number of games without calling the same play twice - save for a couple of dives. That, to me, has challenged me the most. Even in user games, I have a couple of plays that I absolutely love ... but I'll audible out of it if it's not there ... and save it, then save it again for that perfect moment. Remember, it can only be used once. That's how I challenge myself.

    I think relying on your 6 selected audible plays can be a bit cheesey (I'm not referring to the defunct audibles). I set mine up so that I have a few "out plays" in formations whereby I might call a play or two with high risk ... if I don't get the right defense. Coming with an all-out blitz? Blam! Got the screen pass up my sleeve. That sort of thing.

    Another is throwing to the slot again and again, especially on 3rd and 15. I know OM's a great player and he was playing with a relatively unfamiliar playbook in TLC, but that was my one knock on him. Pressed against the wall on 3rd and long? Slot. Over the middle. I knew it was coming and couldn't stop it. I find that the choppy game play in user/user matchups puts those who cover manually at a disadvantage.

    Hmm, what else? Lining up in 5 WR sets all game long and using various hot routes to make it practically unstoppable. I don't think we generate enough pass rush on the straight-up AA sliders, so this annoys me. I can stop it once, and then twice, but then there's the completion on 3rd and 10! It's part of the game, but it shouldn't be 75% of your play calls.

    Lastly (for now), users who constantly bounce it outside dive me nuts. In my game against OM (I lost a heartbreaker, so it's fresh in my mind), I had many rushing plays designed to run in between the tackles, so I stayed true to the design and pounded it for 4-5 yards instead of bouncing it out for 20. I just felt doing so would have been cheap.
     
  25. bdub

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    The guys over at NCAA Strategies seem to be pretty good with it. I think it just takes a lot of practice to get it to work consistently.

    I don't have any problem with people throwing to the slot, just user the FS and play robber coverage. At least thats what I do.
     

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