The Ten Commandments of Realism

Discussion in 'Madden NFL Football' started by Shaun Mason, Jan 16, 2013.

  1. Shaun Mason

    Shaun Mason Somebody you used to know.

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    the-ten-commandments1-300x278.jpg

    TSO,

    I know there isn't always a whole lot of transparency to the process when it comes to what exactly a Game Changer does at EA. Much of the time, it is us trying to communicate WHY something should be changed. That, combined with an interesting conversation offsite with some of the Game Changers has spurred a thought. Often we make the assumption that when we tell EA that we want "realism" or "dynamic game play", etc. that they understand what we mean. Sometimes, I'm not sure WE know what we mean. So, when I go to EA this cycle, I would like to ensure I have somethings clear so I can try to make the development and production team at EA understand. Having a foundation to build my thoughts on will only make it easier to successfully argue my points.

    What I would like to do is create a "Ten Commandments of Realism" I can pass along. Only the top ten items.

    I'll start with these two:
    • Player models and the field should be 1:1 scale with each other.
    • A game should be able to generate stats similar to real football if the game has a similar amount of plays.
    What "Commandments" do you have. I'm not asking for a wishlist, but basic truths that everything should be built on.

    Possible Commandments:
    • Player models and the field should be 1:1 scale with each other.
    • A game should be able to generate stats similar to real football if the game has a similar amount of plays.
    • All plays that happen in real life should be possible in game.
    • The game should mimic the real world, physical properties should equate, i.e. mass should influence collisions. Also, stadiums, travel, etc. should effect players. (I need to distill this one)
    Shaun
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2013
  2. RynoAid

    RynoAid ..

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    99 speed, 99 acceleration players should take 4.2 seconds to run 40 yards on the field.

    Thats just an example, but real world relationships between speed and ground covered on the screen should be a foundation block.
     
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  3. Shaun Mason

    Shaun Mason Somebody you used to know.

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    Excellent point.
     
  4. Papa Perry

    Papa Perry Leeroy Jenkins!!!

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    *DELETED*

    Maybe I should read all of the first post more often
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2013
  5. PAgamer07

    PAgamer07 We're the ship without a storm

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    - Realistic Penalties being called in realistic situations
    - Realistic weather model which factors into the game play more
    - The "shit happens factor": botched snaps, botched kicks and kickoffs, errant throws, etc..
     
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  6. RynoAid

    RynoAid ..

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    I've had this conversation with developers, so I'm curious.. how to trigger the shit. Randomly? That doesn't seem right, some guys are more prone to "shit happening" than others.. so do you tie the variable to awareness? consistency? a combination of them mixed in with a random factor?
     
  7. Baron

    Baron "I'm PFP's reckoning."

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    Physical weight should have an impact on interactions as opposed to just graphical size.

    There is a huge difference between a wide receiver that can run a 4.3 40 at 5-11, 190 lbs versus a WR that can run a 4.3 at 6-4, 230.

    And even more on the OL/DL. There should be a tradeoff, physically, between smaller, quicker OL versus big mauler types. Vince Wilfork's size, and his ability to use that size well, are why he's so valuable, for example.
     
  8. PAgamer07

    PAgamer07 We're the ship without a storm

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    Agree with BOTH of your suggestions. Awareness and consistency would certainly be the biggest factors IMO. Especially consistency considering we now have the ability at a steep price to increase this. Add some randomness to it of course.

    You hit the nail on the head here man.
     
  9. Papa Perry

    Papa Perry Leeroy Jenkins!!!

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    Some guys are more prone to penalties than others. Think they could tie a rating to that? Maybe awareness since it's useless anyways.
     
  10. Shaun Mason

    Shaun Mason Somebody you used to know.

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    Point three: All plays that happen in real life should be possible in game.
     
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  11. Danthraxxx

    Danthraxxx Walk On

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    I would like to see size / mass actually matter more in the player models. While a 3rd string DT that is barely in the league should not be a force on the field, if he runs into a small scat back he should not get trucked.

    Sometimes I feel like the size & weight of a player is just lipstick on a pig :(


    edit: I think a better way to address my point would be to say that until size / mass actually matter the king will still be speed in video game football.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2013
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  12. Kidofcrash23

    Kidofcrash23 Walk On

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    I def would go with Awareness, you can apply awareness to many things for different positions. I believe there are so many ratings already, they should cut down and the awareness rating alone can eliminate pretty easily.

    IN regards to bad snaps, dropped FG holds, should all be tied to awareness, if you draft a dumbass with a 30 awr to be your starting center, he should suck, he should miss blocks, make high , low or bad snaps, ill-timed snaps when QB is not ready. You can also apply the awr rating to the QB, the lower the rating, he can fumble a snap, trip over a lineman, do a butt fumble.

    The randomness has to happen as well, just because you have a 99 awr rated player doesnt make him immune to bad things happening. A 30 awr player would have something bad maybe a 25% chance of something weird happening, a 90 awr rated player may have a 2% chance of something happening. An average awr player with like 50-70 awr could be 5-10%. Something like that.
     
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  13. Danthraxxx

    Danthraxxx Walk On

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    If this point is off task so to speak Shaun please let me know so I don't cause a influx of useless posts ( I handle that all on my own usually )


    I think all football games need not only traits for players, but a clear & defined explanation of these traits .... and that they actually show up on the field.


    Example : high motor in Madden. We can easily see this IRL when a DL or LB plays until the whistle, hard as hell every play. In madden I feel like all of the players continue to move constantly , either with or without accomplishing anything. I would like to see a player continue to fight through a pass block until the ball is away , then maybe not chase down that WR who made the catch 25 yards down field. To the other side of that same coin maybe have a DT that is not in great shape who gives up on a sweep or just kind of stand engaged without much effort during a pass play.


    I know jack of AI programming other than I have heard that it can be hard as heck. I would like to see players be more individualized and play like a real life player model, 2K has good examples of this with some big name players and traits for example. I feel like my football games have guys who just all play alike if ratings are similar.



    This make sense for this thread or a different topic for a different day ?
     
  14. Shaun Mason

    Shaun Mason Somebody you used to know.

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    I don't know if they need to tell you exactly what they should do as much as make sure that they do what they sound like.
     
  15. CHUNKNESS

    CHUNKNESS Commissioner Quality Simulation Football

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    FORWARD PROGRESS... I've noticed on multiple accounts that the ball carrier doesn't always get the spot of the ball where the forward progress was, but rather, the spot is where the tackle was made and the whistle was blown. Not sure what "realism" category you'd want to put that with.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2013
  16. Raidernation

    Raidernation I can show you better than I can tell you

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    You touched on speed but please let there be no sub 82 speed HB's, WR's and DB's. Those people play FB, TE and LB. The slow standard should be 84 atleast. And some impact special teams play would be nice, very rarely are there blocked field goals or punts. In key situations in the actual league these plays are game absolute game changers.
     
  17. Kidofcrash23

    Kidofcrash23 Walk On

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    · - Unrealastic movements and cuts by ball carrier. The ability to be able to take a running and zig zag or change direction is not realistic. They do not lose speed and the ability to take an iso play from up the middle to the outside without speed consequence is not realistic. When RBs do that, usually they stutter step, do a plant and go, or juke out that way which results in loss of speed/acceleration and sometimes balance.
    ·
    Ho Hot route – 100% accurate hot routes. Shouldn’t be able to hot route all five of your eligible receivers with 100% accuracy. The more you hot route the more likely somebody will run the wrong route especially if their AWR is low. Tone down the ability to hot route and make it more realistic, you shouldn’t be able to change your whole play without consequence.

    · - Holding the catch button – Just because you hold onto the catch button doesn’t mean the player you are controlling should be making a play on the ball. What I mean is, a lot of times a player may be out of position and because you switch and hold the catch button on defense/offense, they make a warping type play for the ball resulting in unrealistic catches/interceptions. This should cut down on a lot of interceptions as defenders should be trying to knock the ball away vs doing a crazy warp interception.

    Awareness related suggestions – Awareness/intelligence is I think an important attribute in the real NFL, in Madden not so much. Here are some suggestions to emphasize awr as an important trait
    · For QBs, the higher the awr, the faster they develop and generate xp. Low awr qbs should have plays grayed out in the playbook because usually if you have a dumb ass QB, he wont know the whole playbook. Also, they don’t develop as fast.
    · RB – Low Awr, miss a block, go out for route when he should of blocked, should of blocked when he went on a route. High AWR vice versa
    · WR – High AWR- better route running, can hot route more often and have them run correct route. Low AWR – run wrong routes, bad route running

    I can go on for with each position, but you get the point. Im sure people would hate that, but it is realistic and puts more emphasize on awareness and who you draft. You pick athletic only dumb players like the raiders have done, you should pay for it in a bad way. I think there are too many specific ratings, they need to cut it down.
     
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  18. PAgamer07

    PAgamer07 We're the ship without a storm

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    This is not sim anyhow. It's one reason TMFL runoff is so low. But yeah... creating a new play at line of scrimmage is not sim. A line blocking change and one hot route is sufficient on any play.
     
  19. Danthraxxx

    Danthraxxx Walk On

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    What if the numbers of audibles that could be called were directly related to collective awareness?

    For example Manning & his colts that had virtually the same lineup for a few years should have more time & success at the line to call an audible vs. say Weeden and his team full of rookies & new team mates ?

    I think that would be a fair way of changing an over powered system without making it go away all together .
     
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  20. Kidofcrash23

    Kidofcrash23 Walk On

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    I think most hopefully know this is not sim, the point is the ability to hot route every single eligible receiver you have on the field is not realistic. On top of that, the ability to hot route every single eligible receiver on the field plus have them run 100% accurately is def not realistic. Even if you hot route 1 player on the field, from time to time, they should have the possibility of running the wrong route. It just happens in the game of football and it is realistic.

    This is not a sim or not sim issue, this is an issue of being able to do something that is not realistic.
     
  21. Raidernation

    Raidernation I can show you better than I can tell you

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    Though not a commandment issue, it is an issue reguardless, but if you look deeper the QB does have the ability to manipulate each route as does each individual reciever based on what coverage is called on defense. I'm not saying people should call all hot route plays, I'm just noting that its possible that all routes can change depending on the defensive call. If someone is doing that in madden it's bullshit, call a T.O. Or audible.
     
  22. PAgamer07

    PAgamer07 We're the ship without a storm

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    Another commandment...

    - Home field should matter more than it does now. Especially some of the harder places to play. Seattle, KC, Pittsburgh. Each football field's "quirks" should be in the game. For instance the open field of Heinz Field and how hard it is to kick FG's. The freaking dog pound in cleveland rattling opposing QB's. That sort of stuff...
     
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  23. Shaun Mason

    Shaun Mason Somebody you used to know.

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    In NCAA, an 82 speed = 4.58.

    Alfred Morris of the Washington Redskins ran a 4.67 at the combine, so by EA's definition of "speed" he would be lower than an 82.
     
  24. Shaun Mason

    Shaun Mason Somebody you used to know.

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    I'm going to take ten of these. Think more meta, like "the environment should effect players just like in real life".
     
  25. Kidofcrash23

    Kidofcrash23 Walk On

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    This is a discussion about realism and not about sim or not sim. Realism part is that this game allows any qb good or bad at any time in the game to hot route their receivers and the receivers will run the route correctly, it is simply not realistic.

    Im not making this point to say people should be doing it or not, the point is this shouldn't be possible to hot route every receiver and the the correct route is run correctly every time. This is also not the same thing as saying take the hot route system out completely. This is a point to say if you have incapable players on the field trying to change a play or try to hot route everyone, you risk of running a broken play.

    Naturally, this would regulate to a point any hot route abuse. You hot route at your own risk like im sure real nfl teams do now. Would I be comfortable with Vince Young audibling and hot routing? No, but can he? Sure, but chances are, he is going to fuk up the play. As opposed to being having Peyton Manning and Reggie Wayne on the field, would you be comfortable with Manning hot routing or audibling? Of course. In Madden, I can use Vince Young and hot route as I please and not have to think twice about it. That is not realistic and that is were realism comes into play in this discussion.
     
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