This Has Got To Stop...

Discussion in 'Thread Archive' started by PK55, Apr 5, 2009.

  1. PK55

    PK55 Rabid Football Fan

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    This Has Got To Stop...

    First off, I have the utmost respect for AG. He's always been SIM and strives to make our league experience as SIM as possible. We had a great conversation about this after the game before I posted this.

    I haven't had many user games but I have had a few and I have always been able to hold my own, in fact the last time AG and I played was a classic battle between Ohio St and USC, the score ran into the thirties and it was a classic. Great game.

    Tonight we played and AG ran a defense that I hadn't seen ran by a user. I was completely frustrated by it and it I got my arse handed to me.

    AG very graciously gave me the scoop on the 4-2-5 that apparently some of our Coaches like to run. I kept wondering why he was able to stack the line AND cover everything deep at the same time...Now I know why.

    While the 4-2-5 does cause some initial problems with lineman not knowing who to block when a safety blitzes, it can be overcome by running big sets or hot route blocking rb's into position.

    However my biggest complaint against this defense is that in the game of football you cannot have your cake and eat it too. You can't stack the line AND cover deep at the same time. As Lee Corso would say, "Not so fast sweetheart, you haven't seen the 4-2-5 in NCAA 09!!!"

    Here's a closer look...

    The safety for Ohio St is on the line, is he blitzing or covering short?​


    The ball is snapped and Manuel Johnson, a 94 speed/94 acc WR is slightly bumped and continues to run the deep streak pattern down the sideline.​


    40+ yards down the field and the FS is still back-peddling harder and faster than the WR!!! In fact he's got the WR beat in coverage!​


    http://www.easportsworld.com/en_US/photo/4733017
    50+ yards and he's still back-peddling and still beating the WR!!!

    http://www.easportsworld.com/en_US/photo/4733076
    60+ yards later and he finally turns to run and STILL HAS THE WR BEAT!!!​


    Not only is the defense tough because you have to worry about the speed and toughness of the Safety blitzing off the edge, but now he can't be beat deep!!! Under any other football situation an Offensive Coordinator, the QB, and the WR would be drooling with the thought of facing this defense...but not in NCAA 09!!!

    The fact is, it's broken...and unless you manually control the defender and screw it up, it's not even close to being fair or SIM.

    This defense has grilled cheese written all over it and I'm sure the reason guys love this is because....IT WORKS!!! Hey imagine that!!!

    Instead they should be trembling in fear at the thought of running this, knowing that unless the WR falls down or pulls a hammy there should be no way in Hell that they can hang with a fast WR down the field. BUT the programmers screwed the pooch and gave Safeties sub 4.0 speed running the back-peddle...

    It's not only plays like the one I've outlined, but AG and I discussed this at length and went into many of the plays and the Safety actually has enough speed to get back and appear to be playing deep over the top of the user controlled safety in the middle, or he will break to the outside if an outside receiver goes deep, either way, on many plays he appears to be covering two WR's at once and has enough speed to break on the ball on either the post or the seam...and it should never happen...

    I know, I know, now we have yet another rule change being proposed. I will tell you guys what I told AG, I'm not for ALOT of rules. BUT I am for any rule that bans the exploitation of a known A.I. flaw or unfair advantage. The idea is to give all of us a level playing field and make this as fun and realistic as possible.

    I am opening this thread up for discussion on the possible banning of this defense and defenses like it that give the defense and unfair advantage.

    Peace,
    PK55
     
  2. DatNDaz

    DatNDaz Walk On

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    PK, I hear what you're saying, but I think the problem might be slightly misidentified by saying it's a 4-2-5 issue. To me the real issue is that the game is just broken when it comes to deep coverage. It's one of the problems with NCAA 09. You CAN stack the line and cover deep. And you can do it with any defense, not just the 4-2-5.

    The good news to me though, is that there are still ways to beat it. "Go" routes don't really work in this game unless you have a big speed difference between WR & CB, but everything else can work depending on the defensive play call. Even against the 4-2-5.

    I think the fact that deep coverage is broken is balanced out by the fact that the pass rush is too. I think the game is definitely more slanted toward the offense (just look at our typical scores). And so I'd say if you think there's an advantage to running the 4-2-5, you should run it. Unless someone can show how a particular defense gives an unbeatable advantage, I don't think we should be placing any limitations on the defensive side of the ball.

    If you show how somehow the 4-2-5 gets pressure on the QB every time with a 4 man rush, or how it's impossible to run on, etc, then maybe we take a look at banning it. But the issue of not being able to outrun a CB or FS is not limited to the 4-2-5. I think you could line up in goalline and see the same thing.
     
  3. Old_Elkpride

    Old_Elkpride Walk On

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    For me personally, I think speed is the issue here. We all know and agree that speed is broken in this game, and with our recruiting rules having no restrictions of speed of defensive players schemes like this that get even faster players on the field pose huge problems for offenses.

    I'm not sure if banning a defensive set is the answer, but I think we can all agree the 4-2-5 is far from traditional. SIM style leagues would have a more 4-3/3-4 defenses than a majority of 4-2-5.

    I run a 4-3 defense because I feel it's traditional and it works. There are ways to beat every defense, I frown when I see crazy 1-5-5 stacks or 4-2-5 defenses. I mean in DIV I how many teams run this as their base defense? A handful at most.
     
  4. PK55

    PK55 Rabid Football Fan

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    how can you run on this defense with a an extra safety substituted in and everyone stacked on the line from a spread offense? It's not very likely, you would need to run different big sets and unless you know that's what you're facing, you're screwed going into the game. Plus, we've just dumbed down the game because someone is using a defense that gives you an unfair advantage. The same thing happens when people come up to the line and show blitz and then back into coverage. The CPU defense is given and unfair advantage in how it gets back into coverage, but you don't see people doing it all the time because they know it's cheezy, now we've found a defense that does the same thing and because it's a defensive set, people think all is fair.
     
  5. MazzMan56

    MazzMan56 Walk On

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    I think what elk is saying is right on. In both ncaa 09 and madden 09, it is almost impossible to throw deep routes like you could in the past. Even off PA fakes when you sometimes would have a WR streaking down the field uncovered is gone. I believe they have made these games more of a drive down the field with 10-12 play drives for scores rather than a 3 play drive with a long bomb. Unless you have a 99 speed wr going against a 88 speed cb, it is near impossible to get beat deep. Although I like how you have to work for your scores, sometimes I wish I could sometimes trick the defense for a quick score.
     
  6. jms493

    jms493 Veteran Member

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    Alot of the top online guys use this defense as you can blitz in 1 formation and go in untouched 90% of the time.........yeah it breaks the oline down....
     
  7. Shaun Mason

    Shaun Mason Keepin' it 1hunnah.

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    I know this defense frustrated me. When I played Blitz last year, he was killing me with this defense (correct me if I am wrong JBlitz).

    But I figured it out and had a strong second half and lost by 3.
     
  8. Juggernautblitz

    Juggernautblitz Carbon glutton

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    Yes I used the 4-2-5 last year when we played and you did carve it up in the second half. I will say however that I used it as my base D because it puts another DB in and was only an attempt by me to slow down the CPU's short passing game. As someone else eluded to, I know a lot of top online guys use it in combo with audibling certain players to diff. coverages/blitzes to get almost guaranteed pressure on the QB but I don't play the game nearly enough to learn that stuff. I wouldn't want to even if I could.
     
  9. Big Suge Knight

    Big Suge Knight Walk On

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    I second that PK

    While this game has quite abit that is tilted towards the offense, this is one thing that negates basically all of it and then swings the pendulum back the other way. The o-line in the game does not compensate for the additional defender in the box when this defense is run. This defense is just not SIM.
     
  10. JCspartan2

    JCspartan2 Sparty Party

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    I have run into this a couple times as well, as far as the 4-2-5, and I would have no qualms with disallowing its use. If this is truly a sim league then the 4-2-5 shouldn't be used at all as it is rarely if ever used in the real thing.
     
  11. Old_Elkpride

    Old_Elkpride Walk On

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    Personally I think most user should be running 3-4/4-3 base defenses. Out of curiousity how many people here use other defenses as their base D? Running the 3-4/4-3 defenses works and it's pretty balanced and fair IMO. These defenses that stack 7-8 speed guys in the box that can fly up the middle or drop back and cover every inch of the field are like I said before, pretty lame.

    I'd have nothing against banning the 4-2-5.
     
  12. Basis4aDay56

    Basis4aDay56 Walk On

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    I run the 4-2-5 and I disagree with -- everyone -- about its use. However, if it is outlawed, I have no problem not running it. Do you guys even know what defender it subs in? Who comes out of the game? In user games where everyone is pass happy, why can't you run this defense? The "subbed defender" does NOT stay with the wideout -- that is the FREE SAFETY with good speed. What does the free safety have to do with the 4-2-5 at all? Pretty sure there is one in every defense...

    There really aren't a lot of great looks out of the 4-2-5. There appear to be, but most leave you vulnerable as hell. If you blitz that "subbed defender", slants are wide open, curls are wide open, crossing patterns are wide open, yada yada yada. Its huge advantage comes playing pass defense, for me at least. You wanna run the same routes over and over? I will cover them with 5 defensive backs. Base 4-3 or 3-4, that will not change.

    How are there 7-8 speed guys stacked in the box? What kind of math is this?

    I will do whatever you guys want on this one, but do you want to play the game anymore? Are we only allowed to run no-fullback, ace big, between the tackles, no deep balls, no good defense? This is getting retarded.
     
  13. Basis4aDay56

    Basis4aDay56 Walk On

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    I have never heard of a defense being outlawed, ever. Somewhat laughable to me.

    Your guys call though.
     
  14. Old_Elkpride

    Old_Elkpride Walk On

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    I'm not saying it should be outlawed, I'm simply saying if we have 12 users in this dynasty and like 8 people are running the 4-2-5 that's pretty lame.

    As I said, 4-3/3-4 are more traditional and simstyle. If that's wut this league is aiming for, the majority of defenses should be 4-3/3-4. I don't know how we go about imposing this, but that's for everyone to debate.
     
  15. ReagleBeagle

    ReagleBeagle Guest

    PK,

    I have also felt the pain of the 4-2-5 when I played Dat. I felt that it was just as you said, the line is stacked yet the coverage is in place too. Dat blew me out something like 49-21 but he was up by 3TDs early. Once I adjusted a bit I could find some deep routes with single coverage but the run defense was impeccable and the intermediate routes were also covered well. For me to make a fair judgement I would need to play a couple more games against this D to see if I can make the proper adjustments and find any weaknesses. Also, Dat and AG are two of the best gamers in our league and could probably compete well with any defense they use. The real question is it the game or the gamer?

    I know where you are going with this and felt the same thing after I faced it as a problem solver I would hope that adjustments could be made to counterattack the 4-2-5.
     
  16. Basis4aDay56

    Basis4aDay56 Walk On

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    Well it is either legal or it is outlawed, there is no gray area with it. You do see the 4-2-5 run a lot, you just don't know it. Ever hear of a sparrow - a rover - a buzzard - etc.? If you are going to throw the ball, I am running 4-2-5 on you all day, mostly without blitzing. If you start to run it, I will move into the 4-4 or the 5-2.

    I really don't see the problem here, especially when it is so easy to sprint out of the pocket when there is NO pressure, when you can roam around lookin for the angle on that pass that SHOULD be covered, and whatever other offensive stuff people do that breaks "SIM" codes in every game.
     
  17. Basis4aDay56

    Basis4aDay56 Walk On

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    Both times you played me, I ran the 4-2-5. You won them both. Not too impossible to beat.
     
  18. jms493

    jms493 Veteran Member

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    I really dont think it should be banned but be aware that there are plays (which there are probably in other playbooks) that screw up the oline. You might not even know your doing it but I have seen it done to me and it amazing and quite frustrating as you will have less that 2 secs to get a pass off unless you call a 2 back set and hot block both of them.
     
  19. My opinion is that there is a counter to everything in this game. On both sides of the ball. Adapt and adjust. I have gotten beat in almost every user game I have played in 4 leagues here. I am not sure what defenses were thrown at me but all it did was motivate me to get better at this game and read more plays.

    I have a bad habit from playing the CPU for too many years that I don't need to read defenses and I can just call a play and run it.

    Especially with only a few more months until 10 hits, why are we even debating this? Why was this defense not banned 7 months ago. If there are counters to it then I don't see an issue with people runnning it.

    I agree with jms as well. As long as we are aware I dont see an issue. The game is not perfect and the AI has its qwerks. All this will be a moot point in 4 months.
     
  20. Mogriffjr

    Mogriffjr Walk On

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    hmm this is interesting...

    jms anyone runs dat defense in T1?

    I didn't know about this defense at all...in fact, it woulda benefit me to use a 4-2-5 with my personnel with Oregon but I didn't...I stay using the 3-3-5 defense.

    I'd definitely like to play someone who uses 4-2-5 though.
     
  21. jms493

    jms493 Veteran Member

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    I think Helli might but of course i trust him but like i said you might be doing something funky without being aware......
     
  22. Basis4aDay56

    Basis4aDay56 Walk On

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    Ha ha based on this discussion, the 3-3-5 is "UN SIM" as well and is so cheesy its not even funny. I don't agree, but that is what the majority of this thread would say.
     
  23. Basis4aDay56

    Basis4aDay56 Walk On

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    That is certainly a possibility, but I can say that I rarely get insane pressure on the quarterback like that. Maybe once every 3 games or something like that.
     
  24. Old_Elkpride

    Old_Elkpride Walk On

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    I think this is the point people who are not for the 4-2-5 are trying to make. How do you police "doing funky things without being aware" ? Perhaps rather than having users run this defense worrying if they're screwing up the O-line with certain defenses within the formation, perhaps it should just be banned.

    I've seen people use it effectively online. I for one think the 4-2-5 all together is non-traditional and shouldn't be used often.

    Like Basis said, there can't be a gray area here. Is the 4-2-5 a big enough problem that it should be banned fully, or is it not a big problem and should we keep it? That's what needs to be determined.
     
  25. Gator Heavy is not traditional either. Should we ban that? ;)

    To me it's easy. Are there ways to counter it? If the answer is yes then we keep it and move on. I am all for traditional things as well but I like that some user may run the 3-4, another the 4-2-5 and one user the wishbone and another gator Heavy. Its what gives each team flavor.
     

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