Thoughts On a Fee Based DLC Or Unlock For A "Simulation" Mode In Madden?

Discussion in 'Madden NFL Football' started by Big_FN_Deal, Jul 11, 2014.

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Would You Be Interested In Fee Based DLC Or Unlock For A "Simulation" Mode In Madden?

  1. Yes

    3 vote(s)
    30.0%
  2. No

    6 vote(s)
    60.0%
  3. Undecided

    1 vote(s)
    10.0%
  1. Big_FN_Deal

    Big_FN_Deal Walk On

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    Now before I'm "booed off the stage" please hear me out, lol. I'm not just referring to a "sim" setting that comes standard with other sports games but an entire mode potentially worth paying extra for, something to rival MUT. A mode where a fee is paid to have access to things like editable draft classes, User access to more influential sliders/options, a more traditional Franchise mode with HC09 level realism, data based ratings system and gameplay programmed as realistic as possible, including penalties, errors, injuries, movement, CPU teammate AI, etc.

    It may seem like I'm referring to something "pie in the sky" and overwhelming but I don't think so. It seems to me that if the potential profit for a mode like this were big enough, it's something that could be accomplished. Again, I'm thinking something along the lines of what they currently do with MUT, a team taking the core Madden game/software and creating a separate mode for more realism minded gamers.

    I posted this thread on OS and was curious to hear TSO's thoughts on the matter too. Thoughts?
     
  2. Wyrmreaver

    Wyrmreaver Ready for Madden 15 on Xbox One, lets get it on!

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    Pretty sure that Madden is always trying to be "simulation mode"

    In other words, the developers are trying to make a simulation football game with all applicable rules and features, "if its in the game....."

    So, it sounds like you are asking if I would like to pay EA more if they released a crappy version of the game but allowed me to buy the better version they held back that played more realistically.....

    So, uh..... No, I wouldn't be interested in that.
     
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  3. Drifterbub

    Drifterbub Help me hide a body?

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    All of this are things that the core gameplay team wants to have in their games and what they are trying to build.

    So my answer is no, I think a 'sim' version of Madden is the direction everyone wants to go. I've literally never heard anyone employed by EA that has said, "No, I think we should do X because I kind of like how my LB's don't pay attention to passes over their head. It plays more like an arcade."
     
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  4. Big_FN_Deal

    Big_FN_Deal Walk On

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    Excuse me while I try to switch from "OS mode" where I have to censor myself to be more PC and TSO where I can be more frank, lol. I ended up up creating this thread because I went to Twitchtv to look at some gameplay for M25 PS4 and gamers can pretty much still do the same arcade crap they've always done. Seen some guy "sprinting backwards/rolling out" with the QB, throwing accurate passes downfield, User controlled defenders moving back/forth presnap to keep their player in motion to jump the snap or weave right around potential run blockers, jump catches/INTS specifically targeted to try to trigger certain animations, stretch runs where defenders are completely out of the play and/or laying down on the field, etc. They could address that kind of stuff by using the current stuff in-game and having it be tuned more effective to deter that stuff. For example, there is no way I believe they can't provide a setting that has a stronger pass accuracy penalty for flinging passes off one foot or not being set. It's in the game but it's just not amped up to be as effective as some might like. That's the stuff I'm referring to, that they apparently have no interest in doing presently because if so, they would have already done it.

    So maybe a fee based mode would be an incentive to provide a mode like that for gamers that want sim to the nth degree, that others don't find "fun". I have no reason to believe that Madden will ever be that type of game "out the box" because they want it to appeal to a wider demographic. Fine, i accept that, I just want a mode that caters to the way I find the most "fun", which is for me, the most applicable realism possible.
     
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  5. Kidofcrash23

    Kidofcrash23 Walk On

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    Isn't their goal to be simulation football? So how could anyone justify this? Pay them more money so that they develop a game that should of been developed already and make it as a separate mode?

    Lets say this actually happened, you would see a ton of people refusing to buy the game and I believe EA is smart enough to know that, this idea is just an idea, but not realistic.

    All the problems you listed, my assumption we will continue to see the same problems for awhile. this is just based on how long these have been complaints for 5+ years. We'll see when m15 comes out.
     
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  6. Drifterbub

    Drifterbub Help me hide a body?

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    I think the difference is that both of the examples you listed (crazy drop backs and side-to-side movement) have already been addressed. The speed boost from players in motion is gone. The passing accuracy while not perfect can definitely be fixed with sliders and is getting an even bigger fix this year.

    The problem is that the game may not play out of the box like we need it to in order to be 'sim'. Ranked players deal with this all the time by adjusting their strategy for new features, etc. They are always going to adjust and play the game their way - doing what is most effective. I believe the direction of the core gameplay team is to make the game more 'sim' out of the box. Which means that online play will be that way.

    The problem is that most people's definition of 'sim' is very subjective. Ruckus thinks that we should put something in the game to keep people from going for it on 4th and 16. My philosophy is simply to punish people who make bad decisions and I can say that the game is definitely moving in that direction. There are so many signs of it in this year's game - passing inaccuracies, teaching of concepts and some other stuff I can't talk about right now.
     
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  7. Big_FN_Deal

    Big_FN_Deal Walk On

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    I see what you're saying Drift but it's like we are talking about two different things, in some regards. I'm not even touching on the "sim is subjective" stuff, I'm speaking directly to the complete lack of tools and settings to adjust the parameters of gameplay to not allow the most basic arcade tactics to be successful. As it stands people starting leagues or looking for an online game have to try to matchup with like minded gamers versus being able to select a certain mode or setting that automatically encompasses the parameters for successful play. It's ridiculous to keep seeing the "User control" excuse over and over again for various aspects like errant snaps, penalties and any number of other things, Madden doesn't have to be everything to everybody in one mode, that's what options are for. The "tourney" players should have a setting designed to play the 1V1 style they covet and gamers that want a more traditional 11V11 team style game should have a separate setting. They can create MUT for people that collect cards and want to create their own unique Fantasy teams but we can't get a separate mode sim to the nth degree, in an alleged NFL simulation football game.

    It's apparent at this point Tiburon doesn't see things like that as something worth adding as a standard feature, so I'm wondering if it's implemented in a way to achieve a potentially new revenue stream, would they do it.
     
  8. Drifterbub

    Drifterbub Help me hide a body?

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    I don't think you are seeing what I'm saying. I'm telling you that the gameplay team wants the game to play like you are describing. They have said it publicly. They don't want a separate setting, they want it to play out of the box like you want in this separate 'sim' mode. It takes time to get to it, however. There are things that take precedent and those guys fight with marketing every year to make appropriate changes to the game on a cycle-by-cycle basis. FYI - This year is technically a short dev cycle thanks to next gen launches.

    As I said, there is going to be some more stuff that comes out that I can't yet talk about that touches on some of the stuff you have mentioned in this thread.
     
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  9. Big_FN_Deal

    Big_FN_Deal Walk On

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    I hear you man and think you're a stand up guy but if that's the case, they're losing that battle, imo. You think I'm not understanding what you're stating but I actually do and God bless whoever is at Tiburon fighting for a sim game out the box, however it seems to be a losing battle. Whenever whoever comes up with a solid realistic gameplay idea, it seems to be scaled down to the point of being of very little effect to how gamers choose to play the game, on any setting, once it's implemented. Again, there doesn't seem to be a shortage of good ideas and passion with plenty of people that work on the game, it's just when those ideas are put into practice they seem to be "funned" up, ie made to fit into the way Madden is played instead of changing Madden to be played more like real football.

    All that said, I appreciate the feedback man, if for nothing else but to vent and hopefully by some miracle things are actually different this year.
     
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  10. Wyrmreaver

    Wyrmreaver Ready for Madden 15 on Xbox One, lets get it on!

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    There is no battle. The Madden team is trying to make a sim game. I think you, like many madden gamers, have no mercy for the fact that these guys pump out a game every year while games like Halo come out once every three or four years. Additionally, programming everything the way you are describing and making sure it all works in an exactly realistic manner is fucking hard. That difficulty is compounded by the fact that they have a deadline. Its not as if they can just release the game three years later and say they wanted to make sure it was perfect. If they did that they would lose a shit ton of revenue from lost sales in those years plus many consumers would give up on them or lose interest.
     
  11. Big_FN_Deal

    Big_FN_Deal Walk On

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    Are you even reading what I'm posting or are you just posting some cookie cutter response? I'm not some noob that just starting playing football video games or some casual Madden fan, I have been playing football video games for a looong time and I've been trying to find ways to enjoy Madden ever since Madden 2006. Don't come at me with the "it's hard" "it takes time" stuff, this team under Cam is now under their third full year, yet the things I'm pointing out still exist, also miss me with the "perfect game" bs because nothing I have or ever mention about adding to Madden is anywhere near perfect or not done before.

    Again, what I'm referring to here is using the THINGS THAT ARE ALREADY IN THE GAME, in a separate setting or mode, where they have a much stronger influence on realistic play for success. For everything they add to Madden that seems like a solid real football idea, there is often this belief that it has to be balanced with User control and still be "fun" but for gamers like myself, that find the most applicable realism fun, that separate mode/setting could alleviate that concern. I want to be able to experience the good football stuff they add reasonably "raw" and unfiltered but currently there is no way, mode or setting to do that.

    A clear example of what I'm referring to is back when they added tuner sets, that were supposed to allow for changes to the gameplay without needing a full on patch, that's another tool that already exists or at least did. As soon as they announced that feature I began asking could they release a "sim" tuner where the gameplay parameters would be the most difficult in relation to playing smart football for success........crickets. I'm not even sure if they ever released any tuner sets, much less paid any attention to a "sim" set suggestion. Also there was supposed to be DPP(Dynamic Player Performance) updates released, yet another EXISTING feature that could be used differently in another setting/mode to influence how the game is successfully played. The last example I'll mention, to further illustrate my point that I'm not some cry baby with unreasonable beliefs about what's possible in this video game, is the displayed player ratings. Back when Ian was still around, a bunch of us on OS were pushing for a way to hide numeric ratings because we felt they were TMI and wanted to be able to have a way for everyone in a league to have to make personnel decisions using whatever data was left, stats and how they saw them perform on the field. Granted that's not something that everyone would like or want but it doesn't have to be, if it's a Franchise option. We were able to get that question asked to Ian's team on some podcast or video, don't recall which and the response was, paraphrasing, "oh sure, we could do add that tomorrow, no problem, we know of other games that have something similar BUT that would make personnel decisions too hard for most people without some kind a secondary system to scout players, so no we won't add that". Now that is a great example of what I'm referring to and what inspired this thread, much like you did when responding to my post, they were asked about an option in Madden, which by definition does not have to cater to everybody, it's optional, yet they went into the habitual response around Madden that "it's got to be implemented in a way where almost everyone can utilize it". Nothing to do with time constraints, resources or the host of other reasons used to justify why x isn't added, just a clear admission of it could be added easily but no because we don't see the value. Also before some smart ass comment about "I think it's stupid too", cool but that exchange demonstrates that the reasoning for some things not being added or implemented differently goes beyond the cookie cutter "it takes time", "programming is hard" blanket excuse.

    So like I said, it's become apparent that for whatever reason, marketing, suits, other external pressures, etc, some additions are implemented with the POV of trying to appeal to as many gamers as possible, with seemingly very little regard for options. MUT doesn't seem to have that issue, they put whatever in that mode they feel people that enjoy MUT will enjoy, not every gamer that buys Madden. I'm advocating for something along that same premise with regard to a "sim" setting or mode, that like MUT, still uses the same base game but is structured to cater to a different type of gamer. You don't have to like or agree with my idea, we all have our own opinions but don't act like what I'm advocating for is unnecessary or unreasonable, both of which I have just given examples to rebut.
     
  12. The Richuation

    The Richuation Walk On

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  13. Big_FN_Deal

    Big_FN_Deal Walk On

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  14. Big_FN_Deal

    Big_FN_Deal Walk On

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    Just had someone link me to a Twitter conversation with Clint, that again exemplifies what I'm referring to and why a separate mode or setting is desperately needed, even if it means paying for it, imo.

    I'm not bashing Clint and I think it's great the way he is willing to answer questions candidly, it's just that this shows the issue I keep referring to about realism having "out the box" limitations, that could be avoided with separate settings/modes. Wind is already in the game and I think it's supposed to effect Fgs/punts in M15, I completely understand that some gamers could find it "overkill" with the addition of pass inaccuracies but I don't see why those that want the added realistic challenge, can't have the option. I can even understand if it's an issue with tuning the winds effects on passes to work realistically with the new pass inaccuracies but with all the slider set creators in the Madden community it would nice for them to have the ability to attempt to balance the two.

    Again this isn't a case of me cherry picking what Clint stated to bash devs or Madden, it's me trying to put the spotlight on the issue, as I see it, with trying to make a one size fits all mode, with regard to realism. What am I not understanding that causes something like wind effecting passes to be completely left out, even as an option? I always try to be fair, so maybe with respect to Clint, wind parred with pass inaccuracies would essentially "break" passing and he really couldn't go into specifics on Twitter's limited characters. It's just frustrating to read a reason like "overkill" for why something realistic was left out, even as an option.
     
  15. Wyrmreaver

    Wyrmreaver Ready for Madden 15 on Xbox One, lets get it on!

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    my problem with your whole thought process here is as follows:

    1: Madden is already trying to release a sim experience, a separate mode is not necessary

    2: Your idea of what is or isn't "realistic" isn't gospel (nor is mine or anyone elses) and therefore any mode they released would have shortcomings according to some people

    You used a lot of words to try and make your point. I will use fewer. I have seen tons of players complain about things being unrealistic, cheap, bullshit etc. that I see happen every weekend on TV. I'm not sure if you want to remove user control completely or what, but no matter what they do, stick skills will still have an impact. I have played people who couldnt gain a yard with adrian peterson and others who lit me up for 200 yards with some backup with modest speed. It wasnt an issue of realism, peterson cuts better, breaks more tackles, and falls forward better, but the player still makes choices when to cut back, when to use a move, which hole to hit etc. The same is true in virtually every facet of the game. If you dont want the skill of the gamers to matter at all go play head coach if you can find it. As far as programming is hard and things taking time, those are real life concerns that I understand. Every time we get a new generation of hardware they have to design much of the game from the ground up. My point about other games was simply this, the very best games are those that take years to complete and then years to support. Madden releases a game every single year. We can debate whether or not they should, since they could release a game every four years and do patches and roster updates in between, but that isnt the reality we live in.
     
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  16. Big_FN_Deal

    Big_FN_Deal Walk On

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    I used so many words to try to better explain my point since your replies seem to have almost nothing to do with what I'm talking about. You keep going off into stuff that I've heard a million times before but more importantly has nothing to with what I'm referring to. Not wanting skills of gamers to matter, go play HC09, sim is subjective, etc, huh?

    WTF do your last two posts have to do with the features already in the game not having a way to increase their impact to make realistic football play more necessary to win or something like wind effecting passes being left out as an option because it's "overkill"?
     
  17. Drifterbub

    Drifterbub Help me hide a body?

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    I thin Clint was almost certainly speaking of this current cycle and the bandwidth they had to complete all the things they wanted to do. While Clint has been a big part of a lot of features, he is mostly focused on blocking and OL/DL interaction, which is where he is most valuable. There are people specifically focused on the passing game and they want all the nuances that we want in the game.
     
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  18. Wyrmreaver

    Wyrmreaver Ready for Madden 15 on Xbox One, lets get it on!

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    I'm going to try and continue to be nice.......

    Just so you cant claim again that that my responses have nothing to do with the drivel that is leaking out of your pie hole I have quoted your words above and even highlighted some of it.......

    I will go ahead and restate my earlier replies and hopefully this time you will catch on.

    1) the "mode" you are asking for is the default mode. If that mode fails to meet your expectations it isn't because they arent trying to make a sim game, they are. Since not all gamers are created equal, the game includes things like sliders for you to customize your experience. As fans we hope the game continues to improve and become closer and closer to reality as technology continually makes it more possible to do just that.

    2) You arent Vince Lombardi, your understanding of what is or isnt "a solid real football idea" is limited and subjective. The same is true of every other gamer which is why the designers try and make a game that has the widest possible appeal for people wanting a simulation football game.

    3) I am not sure if what you are asking is unreasonable because I am not a game designer and I don't know everything that goes into making the game, but your idea is certainly unnecessary, see point #1 above.
     
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  19. Big_FN_Deal

    Big_FN_Deal Walk On

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    To a hammer everything looks like a nail, don't be a tool man. There are issues with Madden that aren't explained away by "it takes time", "programming is hard", "it's a video game" or whatever other condescending phrase you've eaten up and want to shit out to others.

    1. Anyone that has ever tried using sliders in Madden and/or know people in the Madden community that spend countless hours dealing with them, know that many don't work as intended and others are broken. Not to mention that some work differently in various modes of the game, for example one slider may have a drastic impact in Play Now but have very little impact in an online CFM.

    2. There you go letting yourself be a tool again, hammering away instead of using reading comprehension. The "solid football ideas" I referred to are those coming from the Madden devs/designers, guys like Larry Richardt, Clint Oldenburg, etc, with extensive football backgrounds, which seem to have their impacts diminished when implemented. By all means though don't let that stop you from trying to impress your friends for likes or whatever it is you call yourself doing.

    3. I'm sure you wouldn't know what's reasonable or necessary, since point #1 makes it's apparent to me they you know even less about the game than I thought you did originally.
     
  20. Wyrmreaver

    Wyrmreaver Ready for Madden 15 on Xbox One, lets get it on!

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    i'll bow out now and allow you to continue indulging in whatever silliness makes you feel smart here on our forums. Have fun.
     
  21. CHUNKNESS

    CHUNKNESS Commissioner Quality Simulation Football

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    I applaud your effort.

    [​IMG]
     
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  22. Drifterbub

    Drifterbub Help me hide a body?

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    1. Sliders being broken is an issue. It's been discussed.
     
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  23. Timpegoose

    Timpegoose Walk On

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    I'm going to compare this to FIFA a bit here because that's what I know best. IMO there are very few people who would actually pay for this mode, therefore it would be tough to dedicate the resources to put it in for a slice of the core gaming base. But as Drift has said I believe they are pushing for this to be what it plays like out of the box.

    In FIFA there are assisted, semi-assisted, and manual controls. Semi and manual probably give the most realistic gameplay experience, and actually play pretty damn well. But it is impossible to find a game online against other people using these controls, even with the ability to filter your opponents by them. I can spend 30 minutes searching for a game online against somebody else on manual controls and still be lucky to find a match.

    I know that the dev team wants to make sure they can make as sim of a football game as they possibly can, but I think they're always going to have some crutches in the game so that it is easy for a completely new gamer to come in and pick up. I think getting the sliders fixed will go a long way into creating more of a simulation mode, but I don't think it will ever be a pay to play it. They would make very little, if any, money off of it.
     
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  24. Drifterbub

    Drifterbub Help me hide a body?

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    That's a great comparison. FIFA basically already has modes in it specifically dedicated to the hardcore, sim type gamer and no one plays them online.
     
  25. Big_FN_Deal

    Big_FN_Deal Walk On

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    TSO, much like the internet , has all kinds I see and their fan clubs. Not exactly sure what "effort" you are applauding, I created a thread, explained my POV and then your "pal" posts in it talking out the side of his neck, coming at me as if I'm some noob that must not be aware of the realities of making video games and understand what Madden currently offers because if I were, then I'd either see things like he does or I'm probably just a Madden hater.

    It's telling that aside from his posts, yours and my replies to them, the few other posters ITT are having a mature discussion, even though they disagree with my POV, wow, what a concept.
     

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