What do you consider cheese in the passing game?

Discussion in 'Locker Room' started by Wick36, Mar 10, 2012.

  1. Wick36

    Wick36 Welcome to the Jungle

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    This isn't necessarily in regards to a certain situation, just a general question.


    I thought and I guess that I still think four verts is kind of a cheesy play, but in another thread on a different topic Shaun said he was a big fan of it. My floor mates who occasionally play the game all pretty much run a scheme where slants, power, and verts accumulate 80-90% of their plays.

    I've heard people mention wide receiver screens before. I don't think they're cheese, but I'm curious what other people think.

    What about the slot/TE? In another thread, Jerzey said there was no such thing as slot cheese because somebody could just move their best receiver to the slot. I always thought that this was kind of a rule though, I know when I first came here I was told that I passed it in the slot too much. Around what ratio do you think is sim? I mean, I've had games against people where there hasn't been a pass attempted to a person on the outside. Tight ends always seem to be the go to guy, even if their ratings aren't good. But yeah, where is the invisible line drawn?
     
  2. IrishBearcat

    IrishBearcat tFC OD Commissioner

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    IMO everyone has a varying opinion of what is "cheese" and what is "sim" which causes many problems. It'd be nice is TSO updated, on a release basis, what is considered to be "cheese" by the masses. A lot of guys come here and don't know things like four verts, throwing to your slot receivers all the time, draws, throwing to the TE down the seam every play, etc. etc. is frowned upon or considered cheese.

    IMO cheese is doing something that is "super effective" often and it's unable to answered with a serviceable counter. Some people think user stripping all game is "cheese" but I disagree. You can easily hold "RB" and cover up the football every time (or at least most of the times). Then you take something like AGGRESSIVE strip - something there is no counter to and is super effective. You can cover it up and if your opponent leaves it on all game they would still rip out 4-5+ fumbles.

    I can try and answer your questions 1 by 1:

    Four Verts - Teams run this IRL even when teams are winning or tied. With the super effectiveness of it in the game, I believe it's best saved for 3rd & 12+, before half trying to heave it to the end zone, or when in desperation to win or tie the ball game on a last drive. It's very easy to stop if you KNOW it's coming.. it's frustratingly impossible to stop if your opponent mixes it in all game and uses it as an integral part of their offense. I believe restricting it to the above lets the play remain in a the game, but on a sim basis. Many plays have 1 or two guys streaking down field. Run those, don't run 4 verts.

    WR Screens - I've never heard of these being unsim and don't consider them to be. If somebody runs these they are HIGH risk for easy pick 6 and are easily stopped by man defense. You can get caught napping play zone, but it's about making a tackle. That's football.

    Slot/TE - The game makes it harder for the outside WRs to get open with how the pressure system is setup so naturally your slot WRs (or outside receivers who run to the middle of the field) will be open much more often. My only problem here is when it's obvious they have no intention of finding the open receiver and simply throw crossing routes, streaks to TEs after he takes 1-2 steps, etc. etc. I feel most people are overly-sensitive to people hitting receivers in the slot. IMO it's more about mixing up route combinations. If you're calling plays to take away the Slot/TE your opponent will go away from it or will turn it over. Sometimes it's obvious it's being abused, but I think people crying because sometimes the slots had more catches than the outside WRs is a cop out. They are open much more often, so they will catch it more often. There's a difference between your slot WR having a few more receptions or having 14/18 receptions, 285 yards, and 4 TDs though..

    Putting #1/#2 WR in slot - I have no problem if they're close in ratings. I usually put WRs in certain spots based on HEIGHT, not how good they are. If you're 6'1 or above your playing X or Z in my offense. If you're 6'0 or lower you'll most likely be in the slot. With that said, if somebody has a 6'4 WR who's clearly the #1 WR by something like 7+ overall points and he's formation subbed at every slot position, that's another story.


    There are always two extremes - The people who want to ban everything about football and claim it unsim, and then there are people who abuse the system and play ranked match football (usually newer members). The fine line resides in the middle. If I've had a problem with an opponent, I've always paused the game and communicated the problem until we have come to an agreement. If we can't, we agree on something for the match until we can get the commish or the TSO "Big Wigs" make a ruling.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2012
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  3. Kasper

    Kasper The Ghost Himself

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    I'll break my responses down in the same manner Irish did.

    4 Verts: I dislike them, a lot- but like Irish said there are varying opinions on this. I despise how easy it seems it is in NCAA to convert 3rd and longs. IMO - if it's 3rd and 10-12+ I should be able to simply call man to man OR zone defense and they should be smart enough to leave all that short crap in front of them and take away the slot post, 4 vert, or whatever route my opponent seems to always choose that shits all over my defense. Maybe I need to re evaluate my strategies on 3rd down.

    WR Screens: First of all, it depends on what screen you are talking about. The straight up WR "Jailbreak" style screen to the outside is a high risk play, I agree no doubt. But the WR mid screen is usually very effective for me. Maybe it is because I think I am one of the few users in my league that uses it, and maybe they just aren't used to seeing it-- but it can be very effective sometimes.

    TE/Slot: My big problem here is when people don't even make an attempt to throw to the outside guys like Killernuts said. They are your best receiver, get em the damn ball! Now I can understand if your #1 is going against one of the top CB's in the country, but there are still ways to get them involved in the offense. All I will say about the TE i I hate the PA corner routes for them, they are very, very difficult to defend from my experience. Also a reason I think you see some inflated slot numbers is that is where the short speedy guys usually get put (which in all fairness is realistic). People want to get the ball to those 95-99 speed guys on the short crosses and run with em, its understandable. But a lot of the times those short guys are also the best overall, so they can put up some crazy numbers.
     
  4. Kasper

    Kasper The Ghost Himself

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    Good topic also, Killer.
     
  5. Shaun Mason

    Shaun Mason Somebody you used to know.

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    I run four verticals a lot. But I run the Air Raid...religiously. I have zero non-shotgun sets in my playbook.

    What I am trying to say is that when it is appropriate to run 4 verticals in the scheme I run (when people come out in cover 2 repeatedly), I run 4 verticals. The issue arises when people run it exclusively to throw to the inside slot receiver, which is very difficult to defend in many zone defenses. I tend to throw to my outside wide outs in 4 verts and work back inside depending on coverage. The reason I use it at all is that it is necessary to have a deep threat to keep people from pressing the short passing game. Without a vertical stretch, the mesh, stick, etc. don't work. It's the same reason I run screens, it keeps people from pressing up and sitting inside the hash marks.

    Honestly, if you aren't running a scheme like I've described I don't think you have much business running 4 verticals. I've learned over 5 seasons to run other plays that effectively do the same thing. I rarely call 4 verticals from the play call screen, it is typically an audible adjustment I make. I would prefer to have smash mapped to that audible position, but I can't get it to stick.

    Truth be told, I'm sure my offense would irritate a lot of people here. The only reason it works in The Deuce is because the guys in the league know I am running it within the framework I've described. It's that same mutual respect that allowed me to run a VERY run heavy option early in the dynasty this year. There are abuses no matter what the play, the hope is that you avoid those abuses and treat the play like it's meant to be run in real life.

    Shaun
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2012
  6. Shaun Mason

    Shaun Mason Somebody you used to know.

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    I'm going to move this to general discussion...interested to see what everyone thinks.
     
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  7. maverickfp

    maverickfp Walk On

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    I have a pretty balanced offense with Iform/ace/shotgun formations. I'll run it up the middle, run a stretch and counters all to keep the opponent guessing as to where I'm going. I also enjoy passing out of these iform/ace set with 2 WRs and mainly run slant or drag routes. if the Oline gives me time (3-4 sec), and I time it right, drags will consistently pick up 3-10 yards depending on if its zone or man. Now i never run a drag/slant route play one after the other. I'll go from like a 2 WR iform set and throw a 3 yd drag, then go to an ace set with 3 WRs and try to open up the D alittle with a slot post or an outside curl route and try to hit the timing right.

    I rarely run 4 verts. Although the 3 verts plays I do like. like this:
    [​IMG]
    I'd rather run that on a 3rd and long than 4 verts. If the oppenent is in a cover 2, ez win unless i get sacked or WRs get pressed. the slot or the outside guy will be open b/c the safety can't cover both. an easy counter to this is cover 3 or man with 2 deep safeties. if the opponent does use a cover 3/man...then i try to buy time in the pocket for the TE to escape into the empty part of the middle for a 10-15 yd completion.

    what's also nice about the "wing" formations is that you can run fairly effectively out of them as well. I sometimes will run just the HB dive out of this shotgun set on say a 3rd and 8...and if the D goes into pass coverage in a 3-3-5 or nickle, if the blocking is executed, it can be a first down.

    The only things i consider cheese in passing is dropping back more than 10 yds behind the LOS and if someone user catches to the same guy on the same route more than say 2-3 times a game. to me that seems rehearsed to try to abuse the secondary AI.

    also, knowing who you're playing is a big deal as well. the guys in my dynasty in my conference I generally know what they're trying to do. so I know if i can run cover 2 more b/c they like to run shorter routes or if i need to stay conservative in a cover 3 or play man more often.

    so if I played Shaun, I'd probably run cover 3 or man with 2 deep safeties more often than not and cover 2 would hardly ever be called due to his WRs attacking the seams. cover 4 would also probably be called a lot.
     
  8. Jayrah

    Jayrah AllCougdUp.com Editor - A.M. avatar Guru

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    Good topic!

    4 verts: With the improved pass D, it's less cheese this year than it has been in the past, when it was simply unstoppable. Still using it regularly (unless within the framework of the offense like Shaun said) out of unpredictable sets to get a wide open receiver against the failed cpu understanding, is a cheesy move to me. If I know your offense incorporates this a lot, then it's up to me to be ready. This is where the PB Threads come into play. IMO that's something you should mention in the Season's PB Thread of your league, and if you do it's then up to the other users to know.

    Screens: NO WAY IS THIS CHEESE! Even if you ran it exclusively there are many defensive plays that are very, very effective against them. I run all screens and they have both been effective against the incorrect defense and very ineffective against the correct defense. I've had all the screens picked for 6 at one point, and I've probably scored on all of them at one point as well. It's all about the guessing game and the risk/reward factor of where you are on the field.

    TE/Slot: Simply put, sometimes they're the only receivers open, and sometimes depending on the cb's on the outside you simply can't really throw it out there. BUT, you should try throughout the game to get the ball to your best receivers, and they should usually be lined up outside. If your TE is a beast, use him. If your slot is a beast and legitimately a slot sized receiver (regardless of his rating imo) then use him! Part of football is mismatches.

    Using an example of how these positions work for me I will use our first AM dynasty, as in year 8 recchem2000 with UCLA used his slots and te's to death vs my young, run-stop oriented and slower than normal CAL Safeties (because I had recruited my LB's and S to previously attack Cheez 's attack which I will mention later) in our PAC12 Championship game, and he beat the crap out of me and I was ultra-frustrated. But I didn't call cheese on it because football is finding the weakness and exploiting it, and I realized that this had actually been a problem all year, but not very many teams took advantage of it as much as Rec did. Even Recchem hadn't used it effectively vs me in our regular season game and he lost it. The next season I took one of backup S's who was faster and put him in formations to line up vs the slot and TE's depending on how many of each team brought into the game, but this was specifically designed for the UCLA attack. This S wasn't in all my formations, just the ones that I felt could line up best. I also switched assignments between my slower S and my dime CB for these forms. Recchem's offense just wasn't the same (even with the most of the same lineup and seemingly same gameplan) and I beat him in the regular season and the Championship game as well.

    It's all about adjustments. Too many ppl here are overly sensitive because the rules in place make them question every move that works repeatedly, and while the rules are great for the integrity of the leagues, I do think ppl take them WAY too literally and use them to pussyfoot out of getting beat by certain strategies instead of putting on the "big boy pants" and adjusting to them. That's JUST MY OPINION, but I think it's valid, as long as the other player is playing a solid game and not using the same 4 or 5 plays all day. Part of adjusting is also recruiting not only the best players you can but specialist players that will help defend the user(s) you have the most trouble with, and then using tools like "form subs" to take away what you know about. I finally did this effectively against Cheez in his run-heavy Stanford offense, and the last couple years I held him to less than 100 on the ground, when he was probably averaging 200+ on the season. And guess what...? I beat him!


    But back on topic...

    #1 and #2 in the slot: Size is the key for me personally. It's what I use, and for the most part it's what I expect (but not as an expectation of other users as much as I expect a smaller receiver is better suited for the position so I figure that's where they'll be. Also, I wish EA made a specified "slot" position so that the game would regulate itself by size, catching ability and quickness specifically in the slot only as a combined group as opposed to what is just the #3 rated receiver on your team. In this case I would expect you to not to be able to move receivers unless you were to change his position in preseason, which would probably result in a ratings change either way). For me, I never try to line anyone over 6'1 in my slot position and I'll formation sub to keep away from it. However if your best WR is 6'0 or less I don't care what the ratings are I think you should be allowed the freedom to line him up wherever. If he's more effective against nickel backs then attack them. Again for me personally if I see this I'm moving my best cb to nickel back to take that guy away. I think once a "matchup stick" is reintroduced to allow you to keep you're #1 on their #1 it won't be as big an issue.

    That's all just football and it's part of why we're here to be part of a competitive league where you try to outplay other coaches using strategies that work! Again, as long as there's actual football strategy going on I'm basically fine with it, and I expect everyone has a different view of how to run and offense and defense, and that's part of the game.
     
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  9. Mogriffjr

    Mogriffjr Walk On

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    I'ma passer by heart so I'll take a look at these...

    4 Verts- It's not cheese and I think it's tougher to use this play successfully unlike the previous games because 1- the pass rush up the gut is insane and 2- the coverage is a bit tighter. I really don't run this play much at all besides end of half/4th quarter situations.

    Screens- They are effective but again playing that right coverage and screens can definitely be contained. WR screens, man usually takes that away and RB screens, a lot of the users I play usually control the LB or DE to bust those plays up anyway.

    TE/Slot- This maybe the closest to being able to cheese but still, not as much. I haven't seen much of guys using their best WR in the slot...mostly, I saw a few times this year where their best speed guy is there, and I really don't have much of an issue with that. Guys putting their best WR AS a slot guy I don't think it kosher though. I usually put my best ovr guy as the #1 aside from the time I had a 6'4" beast tearing up the slot guys, and I really wanted him on the field at all times, so I put him as th #2 or #1 guy.
     
  10. onaradio34

    onaradio34 Tryin not to show how little I know bout anything

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    4 verts in its basic form is not cheese at all. It can be a useful play even when incomplete to get people out of constant zone coverages. I mean, how can something be cheese when one of the most basic defensive calls (cover 2 man) can shut it down. The play is severely handicapped by the inability to throw a back shoulder strike to the outside WR's like in real life.

    That said, I do hate when people hot-route one of the slots to run a man coverage buster like a slant. Also, the 5-wide variant that has a built in slant route is a pain in the ass play. Stay away from those and I have no problem with the play.
     
  11. Wyrmreaver

    Wyrmreaver Ready for Madden 15 on Xbox One, lets get it on!

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    To me there are no plays that are automatically cheese. Cheese is more about the situation you are calling a play from or the frequency with which you are calling it.

    People complain about how easy 3rd and long is and I somewhat agree, but the issue there isn't the play it's the game. Generally speaking the average yards per completion are much higher than IRL, so 3rd and 8 isn't really a "long" down. For example, I've held opponents to completion percentages at/below 50% but still been unable to get them off the field because once every 2 or three plays they get a 12 or more yard gain. They are running Air raid and it isn't cheese, it's just tough to stop in the game, you have to get sacks and turnovers or beat them in a shootout (same rings true for run heavy and or option players).

    The thing about slot guys is funny.... in many RL offenses slot guys get most of the catches, Wes Welker immediately jumps to mind, but obviously ignoring your other receivers is cheesy.

    The things I see that are cheesy are when guys run WR mid screen like 5 times per game.... a few times to keep me off balance fine, a couple times every possession where the other play calls are HB screen, Draw, counter from shotgun etc..... I start feeling like, c'mon man, run a play that isn't a screen or draw at some point please. Also, if you come out in a specific look and I know exactly what play you are calling you're probably calling it too much and if I grab my blitzing LB and user control him to where I know you are going don't complain.

    Again, I've found that any play can be stopped, "money plays" are largely gone, and as long as someone isn't just calling the same stuff over and over again I don't really consider it cheese.

    Even the QB scrambling stuff to me is okay as long as it isn't all the time and intentional..... if you scramble out of the pocket and then make a throw when the coverage guy comes up some people automatically call cheese which is silly. If I am scrambling like that on purpose all game that's one thing, when it happens once or twice in a game off of 20 or more pass plays it's just football and it happens all the time IRL, especially for guys like Tebow, Vick, Rothlisberger, Elway (back in the day) and other mobile guys. Those "busted" plays are often gamechangers in real football, so the fact that they happen in the game makes sense. If you don't want your coverage guy to come up set your gameplan qb scramble accordingly. On the other hand, if a guy snaps it, drops, then scrambles up and outside to throw it consistently when there isn't pressure or he hasn't taken a second or two to read the coverage that's definitely cheese.

    Like I said originally, it all comes back to situation and frequency. If you are mixing it up and not relying on one play all game then I see no issue. Also, you should be running the play as designed and only scrambling/sprinting on designed rollouts or under pressure or after you looked and saw nobody open.
     
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  12. MartyWebb

    MartyWebb C.R.E.A.M.

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    My take on these issues.

    Four Verticals - There are offenses where this can be used to be effective, but not cheesy. Playing my ex's younger brother, he ran this play 20 times a game, and that gets frustrating. The thing I've noticed, as someone who loves playing defense, and is good at playing defense, I get more sacks on that play than any other. Whether it's CPU or User, if they're abusing the inside route, they've still got to wait for the post move. Meanwhile, I'm breathing down their neck.

    WR Screens - Not cheese at all, and if you keep getting burnt on it, it's usually because you're not making that adjustment. The Mid WR Screen is used heavily in real life for certain types of offenses, but my defensive adjustments and defensive hot routes eliminate those plays from being too effective.

    Slot/TE Issues - I used to be extremely guilty of having my #1 and #2 receiver each season being the Slot WR and TE respectively. That was when I was still playing a 'sim style,' I thought, but they were open, why wouldn't I throw it to them? But usually those positions, for me, end up being two things. Whether it's the default route, or the assigned hot route, I use those players ability to get open, to draw the defense where I want them, and attempt to get my top two receivers open, or in a place to catch the ball. The second use is basically the check down. If I gave them a drag route to open it up for a #1 or #2 receiver to get open, and that doesn't work, and they happen to be open, then I'll get them the ball. Sometimes it ends up as 2 yards, sometimes 20.

    It all comes down to, as we know, the player. Most people use the force for good, not evil and it's not a situation.
     
  13. NeuroticTruth

    NeuroticTruth dont know , dont care

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    There is always so much focus on "offensive cheese", but we rarely take a step back and look at how we're playing defense. I'm not going to sit here and deny that there are "money" plays on offense. The aforementioned TE Corner routes out of any I Form formation (regardless of PA or not) are very hard to stop. Also TE Slant Out routes are very difficult to stop as well.

    That being said, in my opinion, if you're mixing up your play calling and focusing on getting the ball to "primary" routes of the play then its on the defense top stop them. Its infuriating to me when I play a guy who runs the same defensive schemes over and over and then cries cheese when I'm successful against him. Its just as much a responsibility to the defense to mix things up as it is to the offense. If you're going to sit back and run cover 2 all game, I'm not going to stop running certain plays because they're having success. I dont think people understand the difference between a "cheese" play and a play thats successful because of the defense you're running.

    Everyone wants "SIM" football, but that goes both ways. You cant simply continuously ban plays from an offense to a point where you can only run 2 or 3 types of plays and the game comes down to who can get the luckiest breaks (not saying that anyone is suggesting this). If you're playing me, run every play in your playbook and run them multiple times. Football is a chess match. It comes down to a guessing game on how you think the opposing team is running their scheme and how you plan to counter it.

    Dont get me wrong, if you come out and run four verts 10 times a game, something is obviously wrong. I just think we put too much pressure on people to play to a certain mold. controllerabuser said this in another thread and I found it so true. I often find myself worrying so much about making sure I play "SIM" football so I dont piss my opponent off, that I over think my play calling.

    Everyone is going to have varying opinions. There are hundreds of people on this site, there are going to be some disagreements as to what is cheese and whats not. Bottom line is, while we want it to be realistic as possible, its a game that has some very obvious limitations.

    /rant


    -----------

    On a side note, how do you feel about hot routes? I've played against people who use them virtually every play to change every route. Its like they essentially call a formation and then design the routes themselves. In my opinion thats not how this feature was designed to be used. I think hot routes should only be used once a defense has been read and you're looking to change one MAYBE two routes to try and take advantage of what a defense is showing.

    Dont get me wrong, I use the pre-play adjustments a lot to try and throw people off. Faking audibles to try and get people to adjust. Faking a running change on a run play etc, I just think people over use the hot route feature.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2012
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  14. Wyrmreaver

    Wyrmreaver Ready for Madden 15 on Xbox One, lets get it on!

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    I do the same thing a lot..... I love it when I fake switching the direction of a run and they shift their LB or DL away from where I am going :cool:

    I use the hot routes often, but only if I read something in the D..... I come out in 3 wide and you have a LB covering my slot guy=hot route..... I see your corner inching up for a corner blitz=hot route etc......

    I don't know that it's cheese per se, but when guys call 2 or more hot routes on virtually every down it gets a little silly IMO. I feel like by and large you should be taking a longer look at what playbook your running if you have to hot route constantly
     
  15. NeuroticTruth

    NeuroticTruth dont know , dont care

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    Exactly. Hot routes should be used to make adjustments from what you read from the defense pre play imo.
     
  16. Shaun Mason

    Shaun Mason Somebody you used to know.

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    You know an easy way to figure out if they are just calling hot routes or are adjusting to your defense? Start cycling through your defensive audibles....if you change the play 3 times and he doesn't care what defense you are in....something fishy is going on.
     
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  17. NeuroticTruth

    NeuroticTruth dont know , dont care

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    Not a bad idea, until you call a blitz against 5 WR sets and they snap the ball before you can change back and someone is left wide open. :p
     
  18. Iron Mickey

    Iron Mickey I'd take her out for some casadias

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    Personally, my favorite kind of cheese is swiss cheese. Especially on footlong sandwiches! Yum!

    [​IMG]
     
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  19. NeuroticTruth

    NeuroticTruth dont know , dont care

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    Leave it to David to derail a thread.
     
  20. Iron Mickey

    Iron Mickey I'd take her out for some casadias

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    Ya'll are getting too deep in here. :)

    I had to loosen it up, it's easy...just play fair and have fun!!! Everyone together! Hip Hip! Hooray!
     
  21. BlyGilmore

    BlyGilmore It's All In The Hips!

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    Honestly I think a lot of folks are a good five years behind the times when it comes to "what is cheese" and what isn't.

    Waaaay back in the Madden PC days (where honestly a lot of these ideas were born and molded), most of what was considered cheese was done so because of the capabilities of the AI at the time. A good one was throwing to your HB. Madden at the time didn't do a good job covering RBs out of the backfield, so it was one of those things you had to watch - but something that doesn't carry over now.

    That's why things like 5 wide and no huddle are still considered taboo when really they shouldn't be. Not when most college teams run 4 wide no-huddle spread offenses and a key strategy for a lot of NFL teams is "when do we go no huddle?"

    To me really the only two rules that hold fast are a) not moving guys around before the snap to gain an unrealistic advantage and b) not run the same play, or the same type of play, more than a handful of times each game or repeatedly in the same situation.
     
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