What factors affect progression?

Discussion in 'Madden NFL Football' started by Keller, May 1, 2013.

  1. Keller

    Keller The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

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    I want to sort of dive into what sort of factors affect progression - maybe this is common knowledge in the community or maybe its more hearsay but I have a good case to look at to hopefully derive some conclusions.

    Assumptions:
    1) Coach has already purchased WR XP Boost
    2) No other variables outside of the ones stated can effect XP values or progression. That means we're assuming that all "normal" players have the same values for progression and that past season performance or modifiers do not affect current season progression.


    Corey Washington - 23yrs old, playing in 3rd season, started season 1st on depth chart
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Sintamuel Webb - 23yrs old, playing in 3rd season, started season 2nd on depth chart - quick progression
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Vincent Terry - 20yrs old, playing in 1st season, started season 3rd on depth chart
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Cameron Cooper - 22yrs old, playing in 3rd season, started season 4th on depth chart
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Derek Childers - 21yrs old, playing in 1st season, started season 5th on depth chart
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    TJ Graham - 26yrs old, playing in 4th season, started season 6th on depth chart
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Lets make a table so all of this information is easier to read side by side

    Player Age Exp Dchart Prog Weekly L2 xpL2 L3 xpL3 L4 xpL4
    Corey Washington 23 2 1 Norm 687 50 500 85 5000 110 10000
    Sintamuel Webb 23 2 2 Quick 1000 50 1000 85 10000 110 15000
    Vincent Terry 20 0 3 Norm 781 40 1000 60 5000 80 20000
    Cameron Cooper 22 2 4 Norm 646 40 1000 60 5000 80 20000
    Derek Childers 21 0 5 Norm 675 40 1000 60 5000 80 20000
    TJ Graham 26 3 6 Norm 562 40 1000 60 5000 80 20000


    Okay, so what did we learn? Let me also preface this by saying, I'm not a fucking scientist. If I screwed up something or didn't consider a variable, let me know so I can improve!

    1. Its interesting to compare Terry to Childers. They are both rookies and both have normal progression but for some reason, Terry gets more weekly XP than Childers. It could be that Terry is a year younger or that he has a higher depth chart position. Lets consider case 2.
      1. Conclusion: Lower age or higher depth chart position yields higher weekly XP gain for rookies
    2. Washington to Cooper. Washington is older and has a higher depth chart position and gets more weekly XP than Cooper.
      1. Conclusion: Higher depth chart position yields higher weekly XP gain
      2. Conclusion: Lower depth chart position yields higher season XP gain
    3. Washington to Webb. The only difference between the two is progression as, seemingly, depth chart position 1 and depth chart position 2 are treated equally
      1. Conclusion: Top 2 depth chart positions have higher goals and lower payouts for L2 and L4 compared to lower depth chart positions
      2. Conclusion: Higher progression yields higher payouts for the same goals at all levels L2-L4
    Feel free for everyone else to chime in and make more conclusions based on the info. This is just the stuff I could pull out in a few minutes. The real question I have is, when are these depth chart positions set for goals? Preseason? The start of the regular season?

    Its definitely interesting because I've been known to put in my backups when simming through preseason to try and prevent injuries. It appears that possibly could have other benefits as far as season progression payouts are concerned. And this is just one position, not to mention this is going to be different for every position.

    It appears that WR3 is the spot you want for your up and coming WR stars. They get the highest additional weekly XP AND get to benefit from having lower season goals with higher payouts.

    TMFL - what say you?
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2013
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  2. Masler

    Masler Moderator

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    You pointed out the obvious that those with higher progression will earn more XP, especially with the Boost. We don't deal with preseason so XP is irrelevant there IMO and to put a talented WR in the slot spot just because he is up and coming sounds kinda cheesy. I could just put anyone there to gain some additional XP.
     
  3. Keller

    Keller The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

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    Another conclusion: Experience is the biggest determinant for weekly XP gain.

    This is weekly experience sorted from highest to lowest for normal progression.

    781 - 0exp - Terry
    687 - 2exp - Washington
    675 - 0exp - Childers
    646 - 2exp - Cooper
    562 - 3exp - Graham

    Referring back to case 2, its interesting that Washington has higher weekly xp gain than Childers who is a rookie. Considering Washington is obviously older as well - the only explanation is depth chart position.
     
  4. antcap24

    antcap24 Walk On

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    Keller
    Did you look into factoring where their OVR rating was before the season started when these numbers were established?

    On first glance, without taking the time to break it down...It looks like to me that could play a factor. Childers at 77(675) is getting less week to week XP than Washington 75 (687) and Terry 71 (781)

    All those are rated in their 70's gets a certain tier.

    Then if you look at your 60's tier..

    Graham 67 (562) and Cooper 66 (646)
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2013
  5. Keller

    Keller The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

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    Overalls haven't changed much if at all since Week 1. Terry may have gone up a point, thats it.
     
  6. Keller

    Keller The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

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    What SHOULD a progression formula look like? What factors should be considered? Should previous season statistics be a factor?

    Should depth chart position factor in? I don't think that's the best way to tailor progression formulas.

    Should scheme fit be a factor? If your "scheme" calls for route running WR's but you draft someone like Heyward-Bey, should his progression suffer?

    Should guys even be able, despite the high cost of XP, improve things like progression, speed, agility, arm strength?
    ----------------------------

    I don't have the time to go into an in-depth progression formula but I do have a few thoughts.

    • Depth chart position should be irrelevant. If you want modifiers for that, base it off of last years production or experience in the league, or both. Where they are, on the depth chart Week 1 should have no bearing on their progression through the season IMO. One of the easiest arguments against this is that this is too easy to "game" to create unrealistic progression.
    • Scheme fit should not be a factor IMO. There are already coaching modifiers for this, and there could be even more in the next iteration. Basing progression formulas on an arbitrary field that can be modified weekly is not a good idea - but it was worth mentioning nonetheless.
    • Age should not be a factor either. Keep that tuning based off of the amount of time a guy has spent in the league. Sure you can put in some formula for once a guy reaches a certain age, but a 21yr old and 22yr old should progress at the same rate, assuming all other factors are the same.
    • IMO speed is speed. You're never going to draft a guy that runs a 4.6 who will all of a sudden be able to run in the 4.3's. I think a more realistic scenario is that you cannot increase a guys initial speed from the day he steps into the league BUT for an older guy if he regresses in speed, you should be able to spend XP points to stave off regression.
    • Agility and strength I have no issue with increasing as they are sufficiently expensive enough to discourage increasing either of them by any wide margin, which is the way it should be IMO.
    • Arm Strength is another one I don't think you should really be able to change much, if at all. You aren't going to see Chad Pennington arms turn into Tom Brady arms over the course of a few seasons.
      • Really I think the moral of the story in all this is that these are all case by case basis. There has been a good foundation set out by this years game to build on, but a few things need to be tweaked.
    Final thought, and I've said this for years, is to make these things editable. I know that may sound crazy to some but the bottom line I always maintain is that everyone is looking for a different experience. One person may want to be able to turn their entire team into 99overalls, another may think that regression doesn't set in soon enough, another may think that cornerbacks are too difficult to progress. The point I'm making really is, you can't please everyone. If these types of things can be modified by commissioners, there's a greater chance of keeping people happy.

    Anyone else have thoughts?
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2013
  7. LSUTRUTH

    LSUTRUTH The one and only

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    If you dont recall Tom Brady had average arm strength when he got into the NFL. There are things you can do to make your arm stronger. I would put a cap on it though. Say maybe you can increase Arm strength 7 Points or make it cost a decent amount.

    Same thing goes with Speed. You can get faster but it requires alot of work and training. You might not go from 4.6 to 4.3 but you could go to 4.4. Which is still pretty darn fast.

    Just an idea
     
  8. Keller

    Keller The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

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    I'd like to hear other thoughts from people. I've never heard of a guy whos 23 and runs a 4.6 to be 26 or 27 and end up running a 4.4
     
  9. LSUTRUTH

    LSUTRUTH The one and only

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    But some guys who are 20-21 can go from 4.6 to 4.4 by the time they are 24. Which is more realistic. But it is all in the situation.
     
  10. dakota7

    dakota7 Former Blue Chip Recruit

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    Which I think is what Keller is saying. When a kid gets to the combine, he's trained and jacked his 40 as much as he realistically can.
     
  11. Kidofcrash23

    Kidofcrash23 Walk On

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    I think progression should be determined by:

    - plays on the field
    - performance
    - awr - smarts
    - age (the older you are, the less xp you gain)
    - Scheme - if a player dont fit, you must acquit.

    Int he examples for speed and arm strength. Improving those should take up a lot of XP. Is it possible for a 4.6 guy improve to 4.4? Sure, but those guys are probably training for that specific purpose. It doesnt translate onto the field, they will revert back since they are not training to increase their times anymore. So improving speed in the game should be very hard to do which it is i think.

    As far as arm strength, qbs can improve arm strength, but not by much. In this game, i probably can increase arm strengh from 85-95 if i wanted to, that is unrealstic. What you have in college in arm strength is what you probably will have in the pros if better, probably not by much, if worse, probably by a lot.
     
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  12. dakota7

    dakota7 Former Blue Chip Recruit

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    Well said.
     
  13. Shaun Mason

    Shaun Mason Somebody you used to know.

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    I can explain this stuff when I have time.
     
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  14. Danthraxxx

    Danthraxxx Walk On

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    Is it expected to likely work the same for Madden 25 ? Or do we have to wait for that answer ?
     
  15. Shaun Mason

    Shaun Mason Somebody you used to know.

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    You know the answer to this.
     
  16. I Peench

    I Peench Caught in the hustle

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    One HUGE issue I have is the fact that AWR dictates overall more so than anything else. Which, according to Shaun Mason, doesn't have any tangible impact on anything in game.
     

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