Why All The Rules?

Discussion in 'Thread Archive' started by PK55, Apr 8, 2009.

  1. PK55

    PK55 Rabid Football Fan

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    Why All The Rules?

    Alright, I've been thinking about this for a few days in the wake of my game against AG, so I have a question to ask you guys.

    Why All The Rules?

    Here's where I’m coming from. There are so many things broken in NCAA 09 it’s ridiculous. Dat has a good point the QB completion percentage is too high, you press on the speed burst and defenders magically shed blocks and close in on you, the pursuit angles are broken, you can stack and play deep in certain defenses and the safeties in particular move at unreal speeds into coverage. On the outside runs they stink but in pass coverage they can cover some unreal ground. User catching on deep post and flag plays causes ungodly separation from the defenders; the list goes on and on.

    What I’m saying is this. We all realize that making a football game that plays the way the game of football is played is probably never going to happen. EA especially will not scrap the old game engine until they have to. Yes they’ve worked on some of the pursuit angles and created more pocket presence but the speed problems and others will still be there along with some other nifty ones that I’m sure we’ll find once 10 drops.

    So Why All The Rules?

    We’re never going to be able to make this game play SIM because in order to do that you’d have to start banning things left and right, that was AG’s point and mine too. It just pissed me off that I actually starting going down that road in my thinking.

    I understand some of the recruiting rules, i.e. like # of players so people aren't overzealous and then cutting scrubs...but why all the speed restrictions?

    Some will argue, “Because the speed is broken in this game!” Ok, I also proved that the speed of the defenders is broken on this game when you play stacked defenses, but nobody’s on board with that because we’re trying to dumb down the offense to get more realistic scores. THIS IS NOT REALISTIC FOOTBALL AND IT NEVER WILL BE!

    Then up the sliders and make it more difficult. I posted that in my last thread.

    Now we have threads like, “Lets make a deal” and “I’ll trade my 5 star for a 3 star to be named later”…Good Lord…

    I don’t have any A+ WR on recruiting board, but it would probably be more fun fighting some of you over a guy like that. And if you get him and start chucking it to him every play, then I’ve gotta find way to stop that or get off the sticks. What’s the difference, we all have burners on our roster already? Play LSU or Florida and feel that speed.

    This is college football not the NFL so teams are going to mismatched against each other all season long. If you've got an explosive offense then I better find a way to keep you off the field, contain you, or take a loss.

    We’re approaching this game the wrong way.

    The only thing that should be on the level is sportsmanship and a common courtesy that we extend to each other as league members, other than that, it’s your guys vs. my guys and your stick skills vs. mine…anything else is proof that we’re living in a fantasy world when it comes to this game.

    Some will argue, “It will create unbalance in recruiting”
    My answer is, "Really? Why? Because there’s only so many of those guys?”

    TA-DA!!!

    Hey welcome to real life! Like A+ guys are growing on trees in the real world!!! Go recruit them or get over it.

    I will say it again, then up the sliders and make it more difficult.
    We’re using the same sliders in My Coaching Prestige League and there are several 1 star teams that are undefeated or have only 1 loss. The newb (lol...elkpride) was right, the sliders are weak in some areas and need some tweaking because many of you guys should have been taking losses. I will fix that.
    My point is that we are fighting a losing battle.

    And another thing...
    Why do people have to mix up their plays if they're working? In real football you do what’s working. If I was coaching a real game and you couldn’t stop the option then I would be running the option and giving you a steady dose of slow death. Many of us feel like if you’re running the same three plays then at least I know what to look for and I better stop it or go learn how to.
    Besides, all I heard earlier when I talked about stacking defenses was that there’s something on both sides of the ball to counter something else so get over it. Ok so you bring your playbook and I’ll bring mine, end of story.

    It would definitely make Scouting Reports a MUST and valuable feature to this kind of dynasty.

    This thread about the rushing numbers and sliders really made me think too. If a guy gets high rushing numbers we blame him and automatically think that it's because he runs to the outside too much be it the option or the sweep. Ok, if he has a burner and he can do that then either up the sliders or stop complaining. If that's how the guy plays he won't be able to do that to most of us in a user game, so be it. IT'S A GAME. Someone could have 3 toss plays for 150 yards and then 10 carries inside for another 50 yards and do that every game and win the Heisman at the end of the season and none of us would know the difference! If winning an award is that important to you and you've got to do it like that then you need a life anyway. Go find out what the inside of a vagina feels like, stop being a douche, and get back on the sticks.

    Of course as our rules state, you shouldn’t be a tool. Meaning;
    * You shouldn’t go for it on 4th down from your side of the 50. Anything else, you better be ready for, this is college football.

    *You shouldn’t be running down the playclock because we’re not using full qtrs.

    * No unrealistic substitutions.

    * No Recruit Cheats. This part could be one of the most fun and competitive features of the game if people would treat it fairly.

    The only kind of restriction that I’m in favor of at this point is limiting the number of scholarships to make it fair. Everything else is fair in love and college football.

    Peace,
    PK
     
  2. Razcalking1978

    Razcalking1978 OFFL TeamBuilder Commish

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    Interesting thoughts. I'll have to read more carefully and think a bit more after I get home. It would certainly be an easier league to Commish.

    Not sure I'd want to play anymore after a guy rolls back 20 yards, out to the sideline and heaves a bomb for the 30th time in a game, though. Or QB sneaks me 4 times in a row in the red zone.
     
  3. PK55

    PK55 Rabid Football Fan

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    Dude I hear you on the QB scrambling, people abuse it, BUT, when I mentioned the 4-2-5 ban there were people that said, just roll your QB out to one side or the other and wait for an open WR...so people are going to it when they need it. I know they do because I've seen it in user games.

    I've been playing some ranked games and have just mixed up where I send a blitzer from to help stop that, but some guys like Tebow are just going to eat you up rolling out, probably just like do in real life.
     
  4. Hova

    Hova Live Action. YiYiYi!

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    QB sneak should be banned.


    But i feel what your saying. To me all of these restraints just make the game more challenging so it doesnt really bother me. The sliders could be harder, but i really dont have any major complaints
     
  5. PK55

    PK55 Rabid Football Fan

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    the QB sneak is tough to stop, at times it seems impossible to stop. I played a guy the other day in another league game that ran the QB sneak 3 times. Twice he got the first and a td and the the other time he came up short.

    Yesterday in a game, I stuffed the QB sneak early in the game and he didn't try it again, so go figure...It is tough to stop though.
     
  6. Very interesting thoughts PK. I am all for what the league is for but you do have some very valid points. It would make the last few months of 09 quite fun. Battling for 5 stars, learning how to stop each other etc. I do think there should be some ground rules such as no QB sneak etc.. but for example if someone is user catching and running the same play, I better figure a way to stop it and user pick his ass.

    I see the point in the recruiting restrictions, so the CPU can compete but with 4 months until 10 hits, is it really worth it? My problem is 2 Tradition leagues and 2 OFFL leagues. I get so damn confused when it comes time to recruit.
     
  7. Basis4aDay56

    Basis4aDay56 Walk On

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    The recruit speed rules came from people bitching and moaning that having guys with freak speed, despite their rarity, it was "un-sim". I challenged those people to define sim, and no one offered anything up.

    There should definitely be some rules because this is supposed to be a "straight play" league, i.e. no dropping back more than 10 yards, no unrealistic subs to break the game, no going on 4th down in your own end.

    Here is my definition of a "sim league": A group of like-minded football gamers that strive to play in a cheese-free environment. There are generally accepted practices, and a small rules set to govern play to promote realistic decision making and as realistic as possible results. The flaws of the game are recognized and agreed to not be exploited to the best of our ability (HB at DE, WR at TE to name a couple), but we still realize this is a game. The purpose of our league is to promote healthy competition, sportsmanship, and most of all fun."

    Before we added more rules, all people did was bitch. Now, more bitching. This game should not JUST be about stick skills, just as it shouldn't be about so strictly confining people that DO have some skills that they cannot have fun either. Is there a happy medium?

    This comes back to the whole parity thing that was discussed earlier in the year. You cannot create parity, you democrats. Some people are better, and they will excel.
     
  8. Razcalking1978

    Razcalking1978 OFFL TeamBuilder Commish

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    I'd be interested in hearing which of our rules, besides the recruit speed restrictions, that PK would remove.
     
  9. Shaun Mason

    Shaun Mason Keepin' it 1hunnah.

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    If we played games as fast as we spring up threads complaining, we would be in 2100 already.

    :)
     
  10. PK55

    PK55 Rabid Football Fan

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    From my earlier post I said;
    Of course as our rules state, you shouldn’t be a tool. Meaning;
    * You shouldn’t go for it on 4th down from your side of the 50. Anything else, you better be ready for, this is college football.

    *You shouldn’t be running down the playclock because we’re not using full qtrs.

    * No unrealistic substitutions.

    * No Recruit Cheats. This part could be one of the most fun and competitive features of the game if people would treat it fairly.

    The only kind of restriction that I’m in favor of at this point is limiting the number of scholarships to make it fair.

    ...I think these go along with what Basis said...

    As far as the QB sneak, yeah it does seem to give an extra push to the QB, I don't know why but it does, does everyone agree that it's unstoppable? I don't know.

    But I will be running with the QB. Not the QB sneak play that's in the playbook, but I am going to run with the QB when it's open.
     
  11. Basis4aDay56

    Basis4aDay56 Walk On

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    As far as the recruiting goes, I also like how we break down the number of 5*, 4*, and 3>* (talking about quantity, not speed restrictions). I think this adds a lot of fun because you need to make sure that you use your time wisely, pick your spots to compete, etc.

    QB sneak is NOT unstoppable. In fact, when we were going to ban it I argued against banning it citing actual percentages. Having said that, I have changed my mind and would like it to stay banned. It promotes fairer play, especially in user games. How deflating is it for you to stop an opponent at your own 45 yard line on three plays, but since they have 4th and 1 they qb sneak it? Even when you run a goal line set, pinch the line, crash the line, blitz the middle, if your opponent has a qb with any acceleration or speed, he will (most likely) get the first down.

    I also think we should keep the rules that are currently in place. This has led to less bitching than pre-rules, and the games have played out better against the computer. Maybe we should put it to a vote? Majority should rule in all situations.
     
  12. PK55

    PK55 Rabid Football Fan

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    Rascal, I admire what you and AG are trying to do. Remember I was the Commish of 2K football league that was hardcore SIM. We had a core group of 8 guys that went through about 10 seasons together. Others came and went and we didn't allow any BS.

    What I am saying is that I'm probably at the end of NCAA 09. It just has so many issues that it's just not fun for me to try to even pretend that any amount of rules is going to fix it. So if that's the way it's gonna be then I have to accept it for what it is and just play or don't play. To be honest with you, I don't see NCAA 10 making that much of a huge leap either.

    Along with yourself, AG has been one of the biggest supporters for SIM play but he started using a Defense that by his own admission gives you an advantage to be able to both stack the line and stop the deep stuff consistently. He got tired of losing to it so he gave in and started using it. It doesn't mean it's unbeatable but if you know how to use it, it does take advantage of the defensive speed in a very effective way.

    Some people don't like user catching, what's next, no user strips or picks? My point is the way the game is made encourages better stick skills and less of a SIM aspect. If it was hardcore SIM they wouldn't sell enough games.

    I was on your side but the more I play 09 the more I see that's mostly an arcade version of football. Trying to make it something that it's not is going to be very frustrating.

    In the end, you guys do what you want, I'm not trying to bitch and moan, I'm just raising a question that I think we should answer. If you think there are absolute rules then say so and why they are important to you.

    Peace,
    PK
     
  13. PK55

    PK55 Rabid Football Fan

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    lol...yeah, you're right, but we're supposed to be getting this stuff ironed out now before the next game drops...
     
  14. Razcalking1978

    Razcalking1978 OFFL TeamBuilder Commish

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    Alright, so that would mean:

    Classes could have as many 4- and 5-star players as they could get. It's fair for the user teams (same players avalaible to all), but in 3-4 seasons the CPU teams will be a joke. Huge advantage to teams that have high prestige out of the gate (Georgia, Ohio State, Florida,etc). Personal perspective - I wouldn't bother using Pitt without recruiting restrictions - there would be no way for me to ever catch up with a lower prestige and few regional recruits. In fact, I can't see why anyone would ever use a Big East team if they didn't already like them.

    No speed limits on recruits. I think this one's been discussed enough - probably not that big of a deal in the big picture.

    Position changes become fuzzy. What's unrealistic to one guy is fine to another. I don't know if you're for/against specific restrictions here.

    Kick and punt returners have no limits. Probably not a big deal, but it will mean that the HBs/WRs that return these will win the Heisman every year.

    QB Sneak. Allowed? If not, why? It can be stopped, just as much as other money plays people have up their sleeves.

    No points cap on games. Not sure if this is a big deal or not. The CPU uses point differential as the 3rd tie-breaker in conferences, so it might become a contest of who can beat up the lower teams the most.

    No-huddle offense allowed anytime. You'll end up with some never-huddle option offenses - not sure what would happen here.



    Yeah, I can see where you're coming from. Unfortunately, EA has no competition in the college football market. So we can either accept the game they give us out of the box, or we can try and mold it towards real college football. If we accept it as is, I'm out. I don't have the stomach to even learn all the cheezing money plays out there, and I'm disgusted every time I try a random online game. So we try to mold it. It feels like hammering a round peg into a square hole sometimes, but there's little choice if we want to play video game college football.
     
  15. Basis4aDay56

    Basis4aDay56 Walk On

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    PK I don't know HOW your realization that this is an arcade game and nowhere close to sim JUST occurred? I could tell that the day I bought it. The point of all this "sim league" stuff is that we ALL have to WORK at it and police ourselves. This isn't a baby-sitting clinic. If you are playing like a douche bag and inflating your stats to win the Heisman, are cheating during recruiting, or anything else like that, you are KICKED THE F OUT with no warning (caps for emphasis on the immediate action -- not shouting).




    I have some questions about the 4-2-5 for you PK, since until you lost to AG everything in this game was kosher for you. In what coverages exactly can the safety/ies on the line cover deep? Which safety/ies is/are the one(s) that can go from the line of scrimmage all the way back into deep coverage? I would like coverages that you have observed, if you can -- if not, don't worry about it, that's pretty detailed.

    The reason I am asking is this: it seems like you are still sour that you couldn't throw deep at all in a game, and kept going to plays that were clearly shut down. Here is my MAIN question to you: based on the pictures you provided, would you say that cornerbacks display the exact same characteristics when in press coverage? Depending on your answers to all of this I have more to say, but I don't want to lead your responses at all.

    Also, do not take this as an attack. I am perfectly calm writing this. I don't want you out of this league, you are a huge part of the heart and fire of this league that makes it so great. This discussion will be more meaningful if there are points and counterpoints, rather than everyone just making their points and not trying to further discussion.
     
  16. PK55

    PK55 Rabid Football Fan

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    Raz, the recruiting limits as far as how many star players you can have don't really bother me at all. If you guys wanted to still keep them, it's really not a big deal and I totally see how that would effect you. Again, though in real life how PITT doing in recruiting battles against, Georgia, Ohio St., and Florida? So keeping the restrictions at least gives you a chance to get better. I just think the speed restrictions gets to be too much.

    As far as position changes, what team starts a RB and DE? That's garbage. But limiting ATH from being TE's unless they weigh at least 225? Someone explain that to me. It's probably goes back to the speed issue.

    I don't know about KR/PR skewing the Heisman voting. Maybe it does, you guys obviously have more knowledge about that.

    Are their "unstoppable money plays" in 09? I know some plays work better than others because of the defensive call but none that I know of that are guaranteed money every time. Again, if someone knows about this then post.
    If you guys keep the QB sneak ban it doesn't bother me either because I don't use it. But I will be running my QB.

    I think if a large number of our guys feel that they can go our every week consistently and drop high numbers on the CPU then our sliders need some work. I mean every week? I think right now, alot of us can if we wanted to. That has to be addressed.'

    The thing with "no-huddle" is that it's not like you can defend it like you can in a real game. You're limited to just your audibles, but then again so is the offense BUT they can hot route and mix it up alot more. No huddle is designed too put the defense at a disadvantage by keeping them from making the changes they would like to make.

    In the video game world, if you're running "no-huddle" you're not Peyton Manning you're a tool...find another league.
     
  17. PK55

    PK55 Rabid Football Fan

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    It's cool I understand.

    First off, I didn't just have a lightbulb moment. I've known from day 1 that EA does not strive to make football SIM. I've been playing some form of EA football since the Genesis days.

    I was on the crusade that Rascal, AG, and others have been on to make this more SIM. They have been honest and really want to make it even more SIM, and I was leaning that way, but I just keep finding more and more stuff that leads to having to ban more things, and to me, it's useless.

    As far as the 4-2-5 thing, it's the cover 2 set that allows you to get stack and get back. You can do other things off that set to but like I said earlier, had I known that you can't go deep I wouldn't have kept trying. AG said that he knew going deep was near impossible and that's why he was using it, because people used it against him and it works. btw, the corner plays flats in that coverage. You can roam with the FS over the top, BUT the SS that drops back into Cover 2 will almost always be deeper than the outside WR (mine was 94 speed/94acc) and for a good 40 yards he can actually position himself to cover both the outside 3rd and the post play. You just have to be disciplined enough to not switch into coverage and AG did a great job of staying disciplined.

    I could have ran around alot more with my QB to avoid the rush but everyone gets bent about that and I just really felt like I was in a catch 22. There are things that open up but you have to go short or buy some time.

    What pissed me off was that I didn't expect that from AG. To his credit he disclosed to me what was going on and even offered to replay it if the league thought we should, nobody agreed to that but it didn't matter because I had already declined.
     
  18. Basis4aDay56

    Basis4aDay56 Walk On

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    I hear you about the crusade. I started giving myself some pretty intense self-imposed "sim" rules to play by in all games not too long ago. I can disclose these if people want to try imposing them on themselves -- to me it makes it way more fun and challenging to play the game.

    As far as the 4-2-5 goes, you are right that it is the deep cover 2 zone look that has the strong safeties cover the deep halves of the field. I didn't even realize that they both did. In every other 2-deep or other look, though, the SS1 has a deep half and the FS has another deep half. If your opponent is just going to sit in the stock Cover 2 Zone from the 4-2-5, then yeah, that is pretty wank-tastic, because on the diagram it looks pretty unbeatable deep. The solution is not to run your quarterback around to wait for someone to get open, as you know since you didn't do it.

    This is definitely a tricky situation. I utilize the 4-2-5 in a totally different way, and clearly it is less effective since I give up points, yards, and everything. I also mix my sets up to try to actually adjust to what my opponent is doing. My gameplan includes 4-2-5, 4-4, 5-2, 3-2-6, and goal line. I don't really know what to say anymore about this situation besides to say that I now 100% understand what you are saying, and I agree: the Cover 2 Zone play in the 4-2-5 is lame. I dunno how people learn about these plays -- probably over at OS or NCAA Strategies or something -- but it is definitely frustrating.

    Thanks for answering PK.
     
  19. PK55

    PK55 Rabid Football Fan

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    So what do you impose upon yourself to make it more challenging?
     
  20. Basis4aDay56

    Basis4aDay56 Walk On

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    - Limit my option attempts to 5 a game, often don't try more than 2.
    - Limit QB scrambles on pocket-passing plays to 2 a game. If I sprint out of the pocket, I throw it away. That is my newest self-imposed rule. If I stay in the pocket, which I normally do, that is when I can scramble, and I only do so up the middle. (YES -- this DOES result in me getting sacked. Guess what, that happens in real life everyone.)
    - NO HB Stretch plays.
    - Minimal use of HB Toss plays (less than 5 per game).
    - No screens unless it comes after a sack, or a holding penalty (huge down-and-distance).
    - No HB2 at FB from the I -- I do run the "Dual HB" package out of the split-backs set, this is realistic to me. However, in the I, the AI expects a normal FB and not a 95-speed burner going through those holes.

    All of this is with a speedy QB, too.

    That is pretty much it I believe. I in no way expect anyone to follow these guidelines, but this definitely makes it more FUN for me playing the CPU. As far as user games go, I will do this stuff to begin with -- but I will play you how you play me. You wanna scramble all over the place, expect me to as well. You wanna run Dime 3-2-6 show blitz all game -- faggot :D (haven't encountered this one in league play ever) -- I will too. Over abuse your screens? I probably won't, but you get the point...
     
  21. Basis4aDay56

    Basis4aDay56 Walk On

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    Also, now that I see the cheesy play that is the 4-2-5 Cover 2 Zone, if any USER objects to me using the 4-2-5 (completely) I will use another defense. Just give me enough time so that I can practice with another one. I will use the 4-2-5 otherwise, but don't fear! I RARELY (I think maybe 5 times EVER) use the 4-2-5 Cover 2 Zone. I just don't like the play, I would definitely have used it more if I knew how narsty it is. But, now that I do, I don't like the play even more :)
     
  22. Colemanchu

    Colemanchu GOAT SPLITTER

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    What's with the 4-2-5, can't you just run the ball for 4 yards and make them switch before you try to zip it downfield.
     
  23. jkhaalis991

    jkhaalis991 Back in The Deuce...been gone too long.

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    Thats what I say. I believe every defense has a weakness. If they stop ur deep passes, run right up the gut so they switch it up. You can beat every defense. You just have to find out how.
     
  24. Hova

    Hova Live Action. YiYiYi!

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    any defense can be scored on, offense is so much better than defense this year, anything can be moved on.

    And recruting restrictions are neccessary for the fact of keepin CPUs competitve. Not speed restrictions, just star restrictions. Im in a dynasty with friends as 4 crappy teams, iowa st, syracuse, duke, n miss st. We have played about 5 years with no restrictions and all of the CPUs are horrid, there is only 1 A team left and that is texas.
     
  25. DatNDaz

    DatNDaz Walk On

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    These last 3 posts summarize my feelings. We're overanalyzing something that isn't really a problem. Yes, the 4-2-5 being used this way might not be perfectly "SIM", but as this thread indicates little in this game is.

    The important thing is that it's not unfair/unbeatable. And in my opinion it is actually making the game more fun to have some halfway decent defenses, but that doesn't even matter for sake of this discussion. What matters is that AG doesn't have an unbeatable/unfair defense.

    PK, to be honest, my take is that you couldn't find a way to move the ball, got throttled by AG, and you've subsequently gone a little overboard with the analysis because you got frustrated. If AG keeps running this defense and shutting every user out, then maybe there's something to discuss and I'll apologize. But one guy getting shut out doesn't mean the whole game and all our rules are broken. I didn't want to go here, but I beat you 38-0 last season, and while the lag was cited as the issue I'm thinking that maybe it's possible you're just a little too one dimensional on offense. Maybe AG and I just took away what you like to do and you didn't adjust. I definitely wasn't running the 4-2-5, but I did know what you liked to do after you beat me like 42-17 in year 1. I concentrated on stopping those things and it felt to me like you didn't have anywhere else to go. Maybe the 4-2-5 / stacking the line takes away your offense, but it doesn't make it unbeatable.

    Sorry for the "attack" on your game, not meant to be personal because you're a good player and a good guy. But I don't think we should be discussing blowing up what we've spent the last 6 months building because of one loss. The game isn't perfect, but I think we're all having fun with the way we're set up. Rule discussions have always been encouraged, but I just feel like this topic has gotten out of hand a little. Just my opinion, I'm not in charge here.
     

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