Young Quarterbacks

Discussion in 'The Cheap Seats' started by CoachRedd, Mar 15, 2012.

  1. CoachRedd

    CoachRedd I come through in something real foolish

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    With Stafford, Brees, Rodgers, and Brady all having awesome years I keep hearing people refer to 2011 as the "year of the QB." While they had the best campaigns, I'd like to look at the three young breakout QBs this year: Tim Tebow, Andy Dalton, and Cam Newton.


    Athleticism:

    Andy Dalton
    4.87 40
    29.5 vertical
    106 inches broad jump
    4.27 20 yard shuttle
    6.93 3 cone drill

    Tim Tebow
    4.72 40
    115 inches broad jump
    6.66 3 cone drill
    38.5 vertical
    4.17 20 yard shuttle
    11.27 60 yard shuttle

    126 inches broad jump
    4.18 20 yard shuttle
    4.59 40
    35.0 inches vertical
    6.92 3 cone drill


    Going off these numbers - I think Dalton is third in athleticism and Tebow and Newton seem to be neck and neck in athleticism.

    Stats:

    Andy Dalton
    16 games started 21 total TD 13 INT 2 fumbles
    1.4/1 TD-turnover ratio
    Tim Tebow
    11 games started 18 total TDs 6 INT 6 fumbles
    1.5/1 TD-turnover ratio
    Cam Newton
    16 games 35 total TDs 17 INT 5 fumbles
    1.59/1 TD-turnover ratio

    Cam Newton gets the slight edge in TD-turnover ratio.

    Supporting Cast:
    Andy Dalton
    Rookie #1 WR. Cedric Benson/Bernard Scott at RB. Jermaine Greshham at TE.

    Tim Tebow
    previously unproven Demaryius Thomas at #1 WR. Knowshon Moreno hurt and lost for year at RB. Willis Mcghahee at RB. Blocking TEs.

    Cam Newton
    2 former 1,000 yard rushers - Jonathan Stewart and Deangelo Williams. Steve Smith at #1 WR. Olsen and Shockey as athletic receiving TEs.

    Tebow had the worst supporting cast followed by Dalton and Newton had the best supporting cast.

    Team's Record previous Year:
    Bengals in 2010: 4-12
    Broncos in 2010: 4-12
    Panthers in 2010: 2-14

    They all inherited horrible teams.

    Defenses:


    http://footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef
    Cinicinnatti: 21st rated defense
    Denver: 19th rated defense
    Carolina: 32nd rated defense

    Cam Newton played with the worst defense in the NFL. Cinci and Denver both had below average defenses too. All 3 QBs played with below average defenses and was forced to carry their teams.

    Playing Styles:
    Cam Newton: Gunslinger. Flashy player that put up a lot of stats despite posting few wins. Seemed to dig a hole early by turning the ball over and showed the poise to come back vs prevent defenses and put up big stats. Excited casual fans by his fantasy football type numbers vs prevent defenses in 2nd half of games. Elected to go for big plays rather than make smart check downs which was a risk/reward proposition for him all year.
    Andy Dalton: Played a lot of close games and found a way to post solid stats while also coming out on top 10 out of 16 games.
    Tim Tebow: Elected to avoid mistakes and make smart decisions en route to winning 7 out of 11 regular season games and also winning another playoff game. Did not take as many chances as Newton/Dalton and didnt turn the ball over nearly as much as either. Sacrificed individual statistics while throwing the ball away and taking criticism from casual fans.
    Now, putting it all together. Out of these 3 QBs, who found a way to win football games with these horrible rosters.


    2011: Who won games?
    A tough task for any QB with these defenses and supporting casts.
    Andy Dalton/Bengals in 2011: Played in statistically the toughest division and still finished 10-6 and made the playoffs. .625 winning %
    Cam Newton/Carolina in 2011: Played in a good division and only managed to win 6 games. .375 winning %.
    Tim Tebow/Broncos in 2011: Started 1-4. Then, inserted Tebow into the starting lineup and he finished 7-4. Then, added a playoff victory over the league's number 1 rated defense. .636 winning %.



    So, who had the best 2011 campaign?

    Well, you can immediately eliminate Cam Newton as he, at times, had flashy numbers, but couldn't translate those numbers into wins.

    Dalton had solid stats and got his team into the playoffs. However, he came up short in the 1st round.

    Tebow took over a 1-4 team and lead them right into the playoffs where they beat the #1 rated defense. While his stats were not always the greatest, he showed the ability to make the right decision time after time throwing the ball away when the play wasnt there rather than risk turnovers to pump up his own stats.

    So, I give the slight edge to Tebow over Dalton because of the playoff win and higher winning % in games they started. However, I think Dalton had an excellent season as well. And, Cam Newton was really fun to watch vs prevent defenses..even if he didnt win very many games.


    Overall, I think these 3 QBs are going to be fun to watch in the future.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2012
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  2. Kasper

    Kasper The Ghost Himself

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    CoachRedd , I don't disagree Tebow is good, but Cam is more athletic, and how does a team that went 2 and 14 have a good supporting cast? You have to factor in the defense to a "supporting cast" imo.

    Cam's the best Redd....
    [​IMG]

    ** credit to The Natural , as I saw him post this gif somewhere and I think it's one of my favorites now.
     
  3. The Natural

    The Natural Public Enemy #1

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    Not touching this thread and whatever Coach Redd posts is ignored anyways so GOOD LUCK!
     
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  4. CoachRedd

    CoachRedd I come through in something real foolish

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    You are entitled to your own opinion...BUT I used things that can be measured...not just my own opinion. I basically based it on what matters the most...who won more games.

    Not who turned the ball over and then put up fun stats vs prevent defenses... Who kept his team in games week in and week out and won them. Then, when Dalton and Tebow were tied I used Tebow's incredible 316 pass yards, 60 rush yards, 3 total TD playoff performance vs the best defense in the league as the tie breaker.


    Thus, Tebow gets the nod...not because I'm a fan of his...because his stats say so.
     
  5. CoachRedd

    CoachRedd I come through in something real foolish

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    Says the guy who posted in this thread.
     
  6. Ryty

    Ryty Over the Cap

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    Just a few things -

    Stats

    How do you measure a QB's performance without using completion percentage and QB rating?

    1. Cam Newton - 84.5 rating, 60% completion percentage
    2. Andy Dalton - 80.4 rating, 58.4 completion percentage
    3. Tim Tebow - 72.9 rating, 46.5 completion percentage (worst in the league)

    Supporting Casts

    Why would Peyton Manning consider Denver if their supporting cast is so awful? You think it is because he sees a very good offensive line with a strong defense?

    John Fox and John Elway

    Why would two guys as highly regarded as Fox and Elway have so little faith in Tebow? If he is really better than Cam and Dalton, why would they be so unwilling to commit to him? What would be their motivation? It makes no sense unless they know from watching him day after day that he just doesn't have the skillset necessary to be a successful long term NFL QB.


    Tebow is a good leader and incredibly hard worker. I understand why people want him to succeed. I just don't like the fact that people let personal bias get in the way of reality. I doubt many GM's in the league would take Tebow over Cam or Dalton and it isn't because they are "haters" or have a political motivation to see him fail. It is because he is an inconsistent thrower with accuracy problems.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2012
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  7. Cimmy24

    Cimmy24 Candy Ass Self

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    You should call up Denver then...tell them trying to get Peyton is a terrible idea...I mean...look at the stats!

    Stat - Denver was 31st in passing yards.
    Stat - New England was ranked 31st in defense.
    Stat - Against New England: Tebow - 9 for 26 (~ 35%) for 136 YDs 0 TDs - QB Rating of 52.7 ----- 5 Rushing Attempts for 13 YDs

    Let's not forget that Denver lost their last 3 games of the regular season and barely made it into the playoffs in "statistically" the worst division in the NFL.

    Those last 3 losses.

    v New England 41-23 --- Tebow: 11 for 22 (50%, you're welcome) 194 YDs 0 TDs --- QB Rating 80.5 :::: To his credit, 12 Rushing Atts for 93 YDs and 2 TDs
    @ Buffalo 40-14 --- **Buffalo 26th ranked Defense** Tebow: 13 for 29 (~45%) 185 YDs 1 TD 3 INTs --- QB Rating 37.9 :::: 10 Rushing for 34 YDs 1 TD
    v Kansas City 7-3 --- **KC 11th Ranked Defense** Tebow: 6 for 22 (~27%) 60 YDs 0 TDs 1 INT --- QB Rating 20.6 :doodie: :::: 6 Rushing for 16 YDs

    -----------------------------------------------

    Check Yourself

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2012
  8. CoachRedd

    CoachRedd I come through in something real foolish

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    So, does Tebow putting up 316 yards against the #1 defense and 60 more rushing yards mean more than Tebow losing to the best coach/qb combo in the history of the NFL in the next round more negative than the postivie?
     
  9. CoachRedd

    CoachRedd I come through in something real foolish

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    This is simply looking at it from a statistical standpoint. I'm not letting any personal bias or any hype from being a #1 overall pick get in the way. The stats say Tebow took a horrible team to the playoffs and won a game vs the worst defense. The stats say Dalton took a horrible team to the playoffs while also playing the statistically the toughest division in the NFL. The stats say Cam Newton won 6 games.
     
  10. CoachRedd

    CoachRedd I come through in something real foolish

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    He is also considering teh Tennessee Titans and Arizona Cardinals. I think we can all agree neither of these 3 teams have great supporting casts. Nice try though.


    If Peyton sees a strong defense in Denver(which he doesnt) he must be blind. They finished 19th out of 32 teams. That is below average.
     
  11. Cimmy24

    Cimmy24 Candy Ass Self

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    Are you going to measure him on one game, or be legitimate and try and do this over their entire body of work??
     
  12. CoachRedd

    CoachRedd I come through in something real foolish

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    If you read my post you will see I posted stats for all 3 QBs measuring their TDs and INTs for the ENTIRE 2011 campaign. Nice try.
     
  13. CoachRedd

    CoachRedd I come through in something real foolish

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    Another thing I forgot to mention:

    Tim Tebow, Andy Dalton, and Cam Newton are all great people to build your franchise around. Yes, Cam Newton has stolen laptops and sold himself in the past, but I think everyone can agree he has moved on and shown to be a good role model on his way to the level of Dalton and Tebow.

    None of these guys would ever be caught in a child sex scandal like say, Joe Paterno ignoring Jerry Sandusky. In a world where Penn State is making athletics look bad, these guys make it a positive.
     
  14. Ryty

    Ryty Over the Cap

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    So, you are back to the wins/losses argument. That is fine. Just don't try to masquerade your argument as one that is based on "statistical evidence". You are using the fact that Denver won 9 games as your reason he is better than Cam and Dalton. Pretty simple argument - you could have saved all that forum space by just writing that.
     
  15. Cimmy24

    Cimmy24 Candy Ass Self

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    Yeah total, you forgot to mention those individual performances...so if you're going to continue to mention the individual performance against Pitt, don't forget those individual performances in the final 3 games. I've provided them for you...

    Does that final stretch change your viewpoint at all?
     
  16. Ryty

    Ryty Over the Cap

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    Wow...classy, dude. Done with this thread.
     
  17. CoachRedd

    CoachRedd I come through in something real foolish

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    I also used statistical evidence from the season. I understand you guys like watching Cam Newton vs prevent defenses, but we must point out who won more games with equally horrible teams. Who threw the ball away and made smart decisions rather than who made risky throws and put his defense in bad spots consistently. You must look at all the factors guys, not just who you enjoy watching more.
     
  18. CoachRedd

    CoachRedd I come through in something real foolish

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  19. Cimmy24

    Cimmy24 Candy Ass Self

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    Now here you're just reeling and trying to push buttons....

    You're also getting into the "personal bias" you said you wouldn't...you can't measure how much of a "role model" someone is when you don't know them personally...obviously people aren't always what they seem to be, look at this Kony guy...seems like a nice guy, wants to do good and all...then he's beating off at a bus stop...

    You've just made this discussion and thread completely unappealing and worthless.
     
  20. CoachRedd

    CoachRedd I come through in something real foolish

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    agree to disagree.
     
  21. Iron Mickey

    Iron Mickey I'd take her out for some casadias

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    This is an easy one....

    Cam > Tebow

    [​IMG]

    I think Tebow still has potential to get better but his accuracy is horrendous. Cam Newton looks to be a franchise QB, I honestly never saw him being this good but I can admit when I'm wrong.
     
  22. CoachRedd

    CoachRedd I come through in something real foolish

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    Tebow's deep accuracy is great.
     
  23. Iron Mickey

    Iron Mickey I'd take her out for some casadias

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    You know Rob Johnson too had a few good games too :)

    [​IMG]


    I mean come on dude, Tebow had the worst completion percentage in the NFL
     
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  24. CoachRedd

    CoachRedd I come through in something real foolish

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    Yeah he did but I dont think Cam Newton is as overrated as Rob Johnson was.
     
  25. KnightNoles

    KnightNoles Learn to Compete

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    Tebow magic happened cause this man wasn't playing....

    [​IMG]
     

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